Need some help with some old powders.

Status
Not open for further replies.

robertbank

Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
583
Location
Canada
There is an old gun shop in town with some old 1lb canisters of powder I can get fairly cheap. I load the following:

9MM
.45acp
.38spl/.357 mag
.30-30
.30-06
.45 Colt

Here are the powders. Some I recognize some I don't:
Red Dot
Green Dot
Blue Dot
*Norma R1
*Hodgdon HP 38
*Win 571
*Win 630
*Win 680
IMR 4227
Dupont 5066

Any comments you can make for using these powders for any of the above calibers would be appreciated.
 
Bob--All the "Dots" have load data available at the Alliant web site and all can be used in your handguns. Blue dot is a good 9mm cast powder and also in the .357 with cast. Hp 38 is the Hogdon version of ww231 I believe and 571 is HS 7. I've used 571 in the 9mm with 147 cast with very good results. Winchester data shows (for 147 cast)5.4 grs @895 fps start and max of 5.9@ 970 fps. Can't help with the rifles but if the powder is fairly cheap I'd buy all the "Dots" the HP38 and 571. The 4227 is a little slower than 2400 and I believe the 5066 is an old fairly fast shotgun powder. Good luck Nick
 
Ditto what FecMech said,

The Winchester 630 is a handgun powder, and predated the Win571, which it approximates. It is superlative in the .38spl with 125gr +P loads.

The 680 is a fast burning rifle powder, very similar to AA1680, which came out to replace the discontinued Winchester powder.
Superlative in the .22 Hornet for accuracy.

Be sure to "sniff" the powders before you bring them home. They should either smell of ether(extruded such as H4227), or "fresh" polyester, like new cloths at a clothing store(Spherical or Ball powders).

If they smell "acrid" like ammonia, or vinegar, PASS ON THEM !!!
They have deterioated!

I blew a bolt on a Rem 788 in .243 with some "old" H4831 and a book recommended "starting load".

I blew primers out of some normally "lite" accuracy loads with some deterioated H450.

Had some deterioated H322 "eat up" some brass, such that 6mos after the ammo was loaded, it was "falling" apart where the corrosion was eating through the cases, particularily at the neck-shoulder junction. The ammo was stored bullet-down.

The 4227 will be outstanding in your .45colt with cast bullets. Consult a manual for appropriate charges. My loads are for HEAVY .45's in a Ruger Redhawk. Too hot to post, but modest in the Ruger, and VERY ACCURATE !!!

Buyer Beware !!!!
 
Great replies guys and many thanks. GooseGestapo thanks for the sniff tests. As you surmissed none of these pwoders are "new" so I will check them as you suggest.

Take Care

Bob
 
DuPont 5066 is a first class pistol powder, the last dedicated pistol powder they made.
I have some data for .38 and .45.

Norma R1 is a fast burning pistol powder, too. I have only a little data for it in .38 and might can turn up some for .45.
 
And ditto with my answer as blindside on gunnuts. Careful of really old stuff,check for deterioration,light brown dust and acid odor
 
PS I would also pick up the 4227 and the stuff ending in dot for your useage and cause their still available. But I never like to pick up just a pound or two of something abstract which I'm going to develope a load for,fall in love with ,then find out I cant quite get the same thing again. Higginson here in ontario is forever selling these cheap limited quanty powders,I'm seldom in line, cause I'm not going to start down a road I cant stay on
 
I used 630 for many years. As was previously stated, it is a great powder for heavy loads in .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Would I buy it under these circumstances? No. I have moved on to other powders of current manufacture, and I wouldn't switch back to a pound or two just because it's cheap.
 
FWIW, the Win 680 is a fast rifle powder, useful for the likes of 762 X 39 and 22 hornet. It's not suited for the calibers on your list.
 
"presumably arrived-at by closed-bomb testing"
Hodgdon Olin relative quickness
H-335 WW-844 101
BL-C(2) WW-848 100
H-380 WW-452 99
------ WW-748 98
H-414 WW-760 95
H-450 WW-785 92

Winchester/Hodgdon
W231 / HP38 = Ramshot Zip
W540 / HS6 =True Blue
W571 / HS7
W296 / H110
W760 / H414
W785 / H450 (both obsolete)
WAP = Ramshot Silhouette
WC680 =AA1680 = H116

AA#9 = Enforcer = W820 = H108


Bullseye84 = POWER PISTOL

Win 231 = HP 38
Win 296 = H110
Win 760 = H414
Win 785 = H450
WC 844 = H335
WC 846 = BLC(2)
Win 540 = HS6
Win 571 = HS7
452AA is Trap 100
H414 = W760
IMR4350
H4831SC = ~ AA3100
 
Old Powders?

The other thing to pay attention to is the TYPE of container that the powder comes in. If it's an all-steel 1 pint can like the DuPont IMR powders, it can last nearly forever if it's stored in relatively cool conditions.

If it's an aluminized inside/carbboard outside can with a plastic top plug like the kind Hercules used to use before they became Alliant, you might want to avoid it if it's over a few years old. Those containers are not impermeable or vapor tight, and as such they can lose solvent out of them and also react with oxygen permeating the container walls.

The new Alliant containers are thick HDPE or LDPE bottles with tight screw-on caps that are a lot better, but still not as good as a steel can. Back in the 70's I had one of the original 44 Automags, and I bought a lot of Alcan-8 to load with. The gun didn't last too long, but the powder was in gallon steel cans from the day I bought it, and I'm still using some for 50 AE loads.
 
Seismic Sam,

First off, love the name. I design and acquire Seismic projects for a multi-national oil company.

What happened to your Automag? Just curious as I have one, but have never fired it.
 
Seismic Automags

First off, I got the nickname by stalling an inboard tip on my hang glider above a ridge at Hager City, Wisconsin and dove into the top of the hill at 45 over and 45 down.. They say my body bounced THREE times on impact and you could FEEL the ground actually shake, but I think they're lying about the last part. Luckily, I don't remember a thing, which was very scary at the time.

Ah yes, the 44 Automag. I got one when they first came out (I was already a seasoned handloader by then) and made my own brass from Norma .308 cases, which was the best brass available back then. Unfortunately, the gun kept breaking bolt rotation pins even with loads that weren't listed by Lee Jurras as being all that hot. In addition, the accelertaor block cracked, and then after I had gotten it back from being repaired (they missed the accelerator block) I loaded it up with some stiff 296 loads, thumbed the slide release with the gun pointed towards the ground. The gun fired and recoiled like hell, and the slug hit just beside my right foot and made apretty big divot in the ground. :uhoh: It was either a slam fire or the bolt didn't rotate and lock all the way, but it broke the circular ring on the back of the frame and the gun was toast. I shipped it back to Lee Jurras and got a new 45 Hardballer and a 380 Backup in trade.

The ONE thing I did with my 44 Automag that was really cool was up on the North Shore of Lake Superior on a rare day when the water was completly calm, and there was no one out on the water all the way to the horizon, which is 40 miles away. At any rate, I tried firing the gun up in the air at various angles to see how far out you could see the splashes of the big 240 grain bullets, and you could see them at ALL distances that I was able to achieve. In addition, what was surprising was how FAST the bullets got there, even with the gun pointed up at 25 - 30 degrees. I doubt any of the impacts took over two seconds.

At any rate, since then I have talked to a few other original Automag owners, and none of them could keep their guns fixed either. It was an incredibly innovative design for the time, but like the Grizzly LAR in 50 AE it just wasn't strong enough to hold together in the long run. Treat yours like the collector's piece it is, because sooner or later they all break, and there's no point in destroying the value of a $2200 museum piece.

BTW, I have a DE 50 and also a rare .440 Corbon magnum barrel for it, and the DE is everything that the Automag wasn't. It's pretty much unbreakable, and the 6" 440 Corbon barrel will put a 240 gr. JHP out the end at an even 1600 FPS. :eek:

BTW2 - I also hang out on the clone club of czforum.com, where ReloaderFred and I get into it all the time. He's about the only reloader I know that's actually older than me, and that's DAAAMMMMMNNNNNN old..... Back when Fred was a kid, there were no guns or cartridges, just rocks and dinosaurs to throw them at... ;)
 
I like Green Dot in .38 Special and 1-1/8 oz 12 gauge. Blue Dot was a miserable powder for .38s, at least in my guns. Lots of unburned powder, even the blue dots were un-sooted.

As a midrange .357 powder, I like it a lot. It just doesn't burn well at low pressures, or at least, that's what lots of folks report and my experience confirms. Others have reported wild pressure excursions at the high end. I stay under Alliant's published data and have no problems. If you want to push velocities in magnum handguns, this probably isn't your powder. Respecting what it can and can't do, it's a good 'un.

My positive impressions of both are influenced by two facts:

1. Both have been reasonably clean in my guns.

2. Both meter beautifully through my Lee Auto-Disc powder measure. +/- 0.5 grain on my Hornady scale, once the measure settles down and decides what it's gonna throw that day. Batch-to--batch, not so good. But within a bastch of shells, more consistant than I can consistantly measure on my equipment. That's good enough for me.

--Shannon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top