Old Powder

[MI2600]

I recently bought some old 44-40 items. Along with an ancient, but complete, hand loading tool and some old reloads, was a one pound can of "Dupont Improved Rifle 4227". It's almost full and sounds loose.

Any problems with loading a couple rounds and seeing if the powder is still good?

 

[horsemen61]

I wouldn't recomend it

 

[rcmodel]

Any problems with loading a couple rounds and seeing if the powder is still good?

Open the can and smell of it.

If it still smells like ether solvent, it is still good.

If it smells like acid fumes, it is lawn fertilizer.

Also, if there is any red dust in it, it is lawn fertilizer too.

rc

 

[plmitch]

I'd put it on a shelf, but wouldn't use it.

 

[mbopp]

I still have a few cans of Dupont IMR powder. They still smell OK and I've slowly been using them up.

 

[bobinoregon]

I've been working on 12 lbs of Dupont Hi Skor 700X for years, every load still goes bang. No Idea how old the can is, got it in a trade.

 

[Slamfire]

Early in the last century the storage lifetime of smokeless powders was considered to be 20 years or less:

Army Ordnance Magazine, June 1931, page 445 says:

“Smokeless powder constitutes one of the greatest hazards from a storage standpoint, due to the fact that it is subject to deterioration and at the best cannot be expected to have a life greater than about twenty years…….Master samples of all lots of smokeless powder are under constant observation in the laboratories at Picatinny Arsenal. Should any of these samples indicate rapid deterioration, notification is given at once, and steps are taken to use this deteriorating material within a very short period, if possible, or else withdraw it from service.”


A rule of thumb for the shelf life is 20 years for double based and 45 years for single based powders. Exposure to heat will dramatically reduce the lifetime of gunpowder:

Data abstracted from Surveillance and in-service proof

http://www.un.org/disarmament/conva...20-Surveillance_and_In-Service Proof(V.1).pdf




Not owning a chemistry lab, all you can really do to tell if gunpowder is good or bad are the gross indications that RC noted earlier. However, if these are evident, the gunpowder was bad a long time before showing these gross indications. I would be suspicious of powder that has a “neutral” smell as I had to pour out at from 16 to 32 pounds of surplus IMR 4895 that had a neutral smell. With the occasional shot I had high pressure indications and then the case necks started to split. First on fired rounds, then on stored rounds. The gunpowder was outgassing nitric acid gas in minute quantities, I could not smell it, but the brass sure could. It was cracking. Old gunpowder does not burn predictably, this causes pressure spikes and blows up firearms. Just look for kabooms with old surplus ammunition, there are examples on various different forums.

 

[kimbernut]

Old powders

As long as they pass the smell test and no red dust as mentioned by rcmodel do not hesitate to use and enjoy some excellent loads. I started reloading 15 years ago with paper carton H4831 and steel flat can IMR 4064 for rifle that had been exposed to all the elements for several years before I received it. It passed the tests and performed as well as anything I'm currently using. I just loaded and fired loads today in M1 Carbine with 35 year old H110. Same POI as new factory R-P and still have some paper carton 4227 I have not yet tried but passes the tests.

 

[zaphar]

I had a similar experience as above. Acquired a can of Unique from 1978, smelled fine/no red dust, used in 40 S&W reloads, no problems other than not metering well.

 

[jcwit]

How old is "old".

Strictly speculative.

 

[MEHavey]

If kept in a "normal" air-conditioned home (70-75º), shelf life is many, many (many) decades.
If stored in a garage that "cooked" during the summer months, consider 3-4 years as lucky.

In all cases, the red-dust/smell test is the best guide short of just dumping it on principle.

 

[Slamfire]

How old is "old".

Strictly speculative.

That is a very good unanswerable question. This is what Federal says:

Federal Ammunition
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx

What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?

Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.

Every service pays Ammunition Specialists to comb through ammunition stockpiles and discard old powder and ammunition before it blows up firearms or autocombusts, blowing the depot sky high.

This is from a 1969 Meeting


This is from a 1970 meeting


This is worth reading:

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JulAug08/propellant_stab_eq.html

You can look at the Ammunition Quarterlies at the Marine Corp Program Manager for ammunition. Maybe you can see that there is not a simple , single answer to your question

http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/AMMO_Qtr.asp

 

[AABEN]

I have some powder in cord board cans that I still use. JEST reload one and see if it does it job that way you will know!!

 

[MEHavey]

Troops, I'm shooting case lots of surplus 30-06 HXP-65, 68, and 72.
Next only to my (exquisitely developed/tested and lovingly-preserved)
handloads, it's the most well-behaved/accurate ammunition I've ever shot:

Two`03 Springfields
Two Model 70s
One each Garand

As to the real answer, I simply refer you to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV8XQjI_nQc

It will at least set your mind at ease.

 

[sexybeast]

I'd try it out. I've been given powder that was dated way back into the 70's. It worked fine.

 

[MI2600]

The smell test disclosed hardly anything...no ether nor much of anything else. As I inspected the can, it had "Lot 32", factory stamped on it but no date.

Then I found the price on the bottom of the can...$3.25!! I've been reloading off and on since the '70s and I can never remember powder being that cheap.

 

[Slamfire]

Troops, I'm shooting case lots of surplus 30-06 HXP-65, 68, and 72.
Next only to my (exquisitely developed/tested and lovingly-preserved)
handloads, it's the most well-behaved/accurate ammunition I've ever shot:

The OP of this thread asked

Anyone remember just WHAT years/lot numbers of the HXP that was giving shooters fits in their bolt guns a few years ago

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=115939

He got several replies:

HXP 77 was the culprit. I won't shoot that stuff. A whole bunch of heavy bolt handle lifts in the 03 matches when it was issued at Perry. I have fired a lot of HXP 70, 72 & 73 with no issues at all, 03's and M1's.

In the 2007 Perry matches it was '88 dated ammo that gave a lot of 03A3 fits on opening. I keep the saved round I had in rapids beside the silver medal I earned with 29 rounds. Believe me when I tell you it was locking those bolts up TIGHT. (As in roll out of position and beat them open.)

 

[jcwit]

I have some 8mm ammo with the Nazi Swastika head stamp that still shoots good. Now thats "old" ammo.

 

[Blue68f100]

The smell test disclosed hardly anything...no ether nor much of anything else. As I inspected the can, it had "Lot 32", factory stamped on it but no date.

Then I found the price on the bottom of the can...$3.25!! I've been reloading off and on since the '70s and I can never remember powder being that cheap.

I have some Herco in the square metal cans that have a $2.99 price tag on it. From the late 60's early 70's.

A have quite a bit of powder from the 70's. If you have a crony shoot a load and compare to a know (new).