Need some Muzzleloader help

[Axis II]

I shot my CVA Optima V2 yesterday with the following setup.
100 gr 777 Loose, CCI mag primer, 250gr Barnes TZ with blue sabot.
Left pic: 1st shot from a clean bore impacted by the #6. 2nd shot from a fouled bore shot at the bottom of the bull. 3rd shot from a fouled bore shot at noon. I then swabbed the bore with a wet TC cleaning patch and about 5 dry ones. The next "clean" bore shot shot at 7 o'clock and then the next 2 from a fouled bore shot center bull touching each other.

Figuring the barrel needed at least 1-2 shots through it from clean to hold a group I cleaned the barrel as if it was brand new to duplicate the first scenario. Well that didn't go so well. It shot 2 shots about 4'' higher than the target. Once it got dirty it started bringing them down to the 1 o'clock position. After 3 shots, with two misses on the right hand target I ran a wet patch and dry patches down the bore and the next 2 rounds touched each other at 2 o'clock. I then sent round #3 which impacted at 11 o'clock. I said the heck with it, cleaned the barrel and broke out the blackhorn 209 which shot the group by the bullseye. I have 3 shots of BH209 left so I need this 777 loose to work.

Scope feels tight. I don't get how one minute it takes a fouling shot and then touches holes and when you try that again its all over the place.

 

[Axis II]

Forgot to add pictures.

 

[AK Hunter]

Are you sure you are getting the same powder charge & ramming it down the same each time? Are all the mounting screws on the gun tight?
My muzzle loader has to shoot from a two shot fowled barrel to come anywhere close to zero. After two shots it gets consistent. So I when I check zero at the start of the season with the two shots the 3rd load I seal the barrel then go hunting.

 

[Steve S.]

My experience with my T/C Pro Hunter and 777 is about the same IF I do not clean between each shot - no rhyme or reason.
I found that I get consistency and only get consistency when I clean/ swab between every shot. I have also discovered that my breech plug channel fouls after several shots - I theorize that the flash pattern into the chamber may change as the breech plug channel fouls - I now clean the plug channel religiously after every three shots.
I think that the only shot that counts (I am a deer hunter) is the first shot; I try to duplicate the first shot performance with every shot at the range; that requires a clean bore and breech plug - and consistent loading technique. If I shoot clean and load consistently, my rifle will touch five rounds at 100 yards. It is a slow process and it is a pain at the range to clean that much but, it is the only process that works for me with either 777 or Pyrodex.

 

[Axis II]

Are you sure you are getting the same powder charge & ramming it down the same each time? Are all the mounting screws on the gun tight?
My muzzle loader has to shoot from a two shot fowled barrel to come anywhere close to zero. After two shots it gets consistent. So I when I check zero at the start of the season with the two shots the 3rd load I seal the barrel then go hunting.

I am using a TC U view measure for 100gr and load the measure to the rim each time. After the first shot it doesn't want to seat where it did on the first shot so I lift the rod and pack it down until my ramrod line and muzzle line up. I grabbed the scope and mount and all feel solid and have been loc tite. I figured it was the scope at first until the blackhorn 209 loads put them consistently in the bull. I was trying to duplicate the 2 shot method like you described but it didn't work the 2nd or 3rd time.

 

[Axis II]

My experience with my T/C Pro Hunter and 777 is about the same IF I do not clean between each shot - no rhyme or reason.
I found that I get consistency and only get consistency when I clean/ swab between every shot. I have also discovered that my breech plug channel fouls after several shots - I theorize that the flash pattern into the chamber may change as the breech plug channel fouls - I now clean the plug channel religiously after every three shots.
I think that the only shot that counts (I am a deer hunter) is the first shot; I try to duplicate the first shot performance with every shot at the range; that requires a clean bore and breech plug - and consistent loading technique. If I shoot clean and load consistently, my rifle will touch five rounds at 100 yards. It is a slow process and it is a pain at the range to clean that much but, it is the only process that works for me with either 777 or Pyrodex.

I may take it back out with a clean breech plug and barrel and fire a round and then clean it again and see where that round hits.

 

[Thomasss]

You didn't say what F granulation you are using. Have you ever tried different powder loads?
777 is notorious for developing a burnt powder ring just under the projectile which will cause problems
seating the next shot. I religiously wipe and clean every 2 shots and it helps a lot not only with loading, but also with shot placement.

 

[beag_nut]

Wrong forum. This belongs in the Blackpowder sub-forum.

 

[Axis II]

Wrong forum. This belongs in the Blackpowder sub-forum.

Yeah, this is the rifle forum. You know, like muzzleloading rifle. If you need help finding the Blackpowder sub-forum its about mid way of the home page.

 

[WVRJ]

Maybe try going up or down with the powder charge.My TC Omega acted like your rifle with 100 grains of 777 but with 150 grains it's a lot more consistent.

 

[TwistingInTheWind]

I've had more "fliers" when using lighter bullets in my Acura. It seems to like the heavier 300 grain bullets with a sabot.
Maybe try a bigger bullet?

 

[Hugger-4641]

Maybe try going up or down with the powder charge.My TC Omega acted like your rifle with 100 grains of 777 but with 150 grains it's a lot more consistent.

This was going to be my suggestion also. The Optima works better with Magnum loads.
I would try at least 120gr. I also found the Power Belt and Bore Driver type bullets to be more consistent than sabots and can be shot a few more times between cleaning without affecting POI.
I sighted in this Optima V2 for a friend and this wasn't actually the best group.

 

[alsaqr]

. After the first shot it doesn't want to seat where it did on the first shot so I lift the rod and pack it down until my ramrod line and muzzle line up.

In a couple words, crud ring. The hot magnum primer makes the crud ring worse. Try to find some Triple Seven primers.

(1) winchester muzzleloader shotgun primers - Bing

 

[Seedy Character]

I have a Remington Genesis and use 209 shotgun primers. Changing to the BP 209 primer (a hotter primer, I have been told), accuracy remains the same, when using 777 or Pyrodex, but improves with GOEX FFg.
When shooting 250 gr bullets with a sabot vs Power Belt, the Power Belt wins easily.
Loading 100, 120, and 150gr powder loads (777, Pyrodex, or GOEX). 150gr gives 5" groups.
120gr and 100gr shoot 2" groups.

I have found 777 has that 1st shot flyer. GOEX is more consistent and more accurate, prefers a BP 209 primer. Pyrodex is close. 777 is third, loose being more consistent than pellet; though the pellets are convenient IF you use 100 or 150 grains.

What I have found, black powder loads are like cartridge loads; every load must be worked up to fit them rifle. Bullet weight, primer, powder, powder charge make a difference.
Find what works for you rifle.

 

[Axis II]

I've had more "fliers" when using lighter bullets in my Acura. It seems to like the heavier 300 grain bullets with a sabot.
Maybe try a bigger bullet?

I shoot 300gr XTP with Blackhorn and it shoots good. I ran out so tried the Barnes. Going to round up some 300gr this week. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[noelf2]

I have a Remington Genesis and use 209 shotgun primers. Changing to the BP 209 primer (a hotter primer, I have been told), accuracy remains the same, when using 777 or Pyrodex, but improves with GOEX FFg.
When shooting 250 gr bullets with a sabot vs Power Belt, the Power Belt wins easily.
Loading 100, 120, and 150gr powder loads (777, Pyrodex, or GOEX). 150gr gives 5" groups.
120gr and 100gr shoot 2" groups.

I have found 777 has that 1st shot flyer. GOEX is more consistent and more accurate, prefers a BP 209 primer. Pyrodex is close. 777 is third, loose being more consistent than pellet; though the pellets are convenient IF you use 100 or 150 grains.

What I have found, black powder loads are like cartridge loads; every load must be worked up to fit them rifle. Bullet weight, primer, powder, powder charge make a difference.
Find what works for you rifle.

Not sure what you mean by a "BP 209 primer", but 209 primers specifically for black powder or subs are less hot ,or weaker, than generic shotgun 209 primers.

 

[Seedy Character]

I have used Winchester 209 shotshell primers for years.
Seen them black powder 209s, another customer stated they were hotter. I can't tell a difference, except GOEX gets better accuracy.
Saves my shotshell primers.

They were the only primers available, so I bought them. Had 6 tins of cops, in sold the guy, for triple what I paid. Got 1000 209s for 600 caps.

Didn't have a use for them caps, so I was happy.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I've used Federal, Win, Rem and 777 primers in my inlines. Never noticed any difference as far as accuracy. But I have noticed more delayed fires with 777 powder.

 

[J-Bar]

Plastic residue accumulates in the bore quickly when using sabots. It's another factor that can cause groups to open up after a few shots. If this is a rifle for hunting, take the time to clean out the barrel COMPLETELY after each shot, to ensure removal of all the smeared plastic. Yes it is a pain in the butt, which is one reason I converted from sabots to patched round balls. Cleaning out powder fouling is quicker and easier than scrubbing out plastic fouling. Using lead projectiles without sabots, like the Hornady Great Plains bullets, is another good choice.

 

[alsaqr]

Plastic residue accumulates in the bore quickly when using sabots.

The very first sabots did sometimes leave plastic residue in the bore. Modern sabots might leave plastic residue in barrels that are pitted or rusty. i've never encountered plastic residue in the bore of a properly cared for rifle.

 

[noelf2]

Plastic residue accumulates in the bore quickly when using sabots. It's another factor that can cause groups to open up after a few shots. If this is a rifle for hunting, take the time to clean out the barrel COMPLETELY after each shot, to ensure removal of all the smeared plastic. Yes it is a pain in the butt, which is one reason I converted from sabots to patched round balls. Cleaning out powder fouling is quicker and easier than scrubbing out plastic fouling. Using lead projectiles without sabots, like the Hornady Great Plains bullets, is another good choice.

I haven't noticed any melted plastic with the sabots I use, but I do run a wet patch followed by a dry patch after each shot. That seems to be enough for consistent accuracy between shots for me (100gr 777, and 777 209 primers), and no accumulated crud ring. My inline is a break action, so I open it and really push the wet-patched jag in with authority to blow out anything in the breech plug. I wet and dry patch my hawken between shots also, so, not much difference in the two guns for me. I use both.