Needed Barrel lenght?

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lefteyedom

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I have a 50 cal Knight LK-93 with a 21.75" barrel. I want to shorten the barrel to 19.25 for an over all rifle length of 38".
How much will this effect muzzle velocity with a muzzle-loader? How much barrel length is really needed for a M.R to burn its powder charge?
Is there a rule of thumb similar to 25-50 fps with center-fire rifles?
Is there a barrel length sweet spot?

Thanks
GR
 
Black powder is a slower charge and you need a longer barrel to harness it. That's why the 42" barrels :) I am thinking a 19" barrel would be closer to that of a pistol as for fps goes.
 
I'm not sure if anyone can answer your question with precision and accuracy, just like one can never predict just what effect shortening your barrel by 2.5 inches will have on it's velocity and accuracy.
Velocity usually does decrease in relation to the barrel length, and there may only be a minimal loss of absolute attainable velocity caused by shortening your barrel if maximum charges were always being fired. But there's different powders with each having different velocity curves, so I'm not sure that there would be much of a measurable difference since the powder charge can be increased or the type of powder can be changed to compensate for it.
However, one can never tell what effect the barrel shortening would have on accuracy. There may be some shortened barrel length where the accuracy may actually start to become much more noticiable. For example, the barrel length that used to shoot accurately at 100 yards may now only shoot accurately out to 75 yards just because a couple of inches were taken off.
Once a barrel is altered, there just may be unintended consequences. Not necesarily, but possibly.
Let me ask why shortening the barrel by 2.5 inches is important?
If someone intends to use the gun for brush hunting then I don't think removing that length of barrel is very important. But if the gun is going to be used for shooting out past 75 yards, then maybe that additional length of rifling may become more important.
I ask myself why and I'm not totally sure. But I do remember reading about a famous BP barrel maker stating that it's the last few inches of the bore that affects accuracy the most.
Since most of the original barrel length is necessary to develop velocity, and the end is important for accuracy, then there's not much unecessary length left that can be chopped off without having some negative affect.
So unless the muzzle of your gun is damaged and you feel that it's necessary to repair it, then shortening it may carry at least a small risk of affecting its long range performance.
I think that when Knight designed the gun they made a decision about what the minimum barrel length should be to deliver the accuracy that it would be expected to deliver.
If you do shorten your barrel length, then maybe you should be prepared to accept sacrificing at least a token amount of accuracy at the fringe range that the gun was intended to shoot more accurately at. That amount may only represent 10 or 15 yards, but that's just a wild guess based on my gut instinct and nothing else.
If it was a round ball barrel that was that short, it might not accurately shoot anywhere near that far. But being a fast twist GM barrel, maybe it will still shoot slugs pretty decently much like a rifled shotgun barrel of a similar length. Not as much of a tack driver but maybe it will maintain pie plate accuracy which is good enough for most purposes.
The much easier answer would have been to just say that the rifle won't lose much if any velocity or accuracy. And while that might be true, I'd rather look at it from a critical point of view. My perspective is to ask, "What's the worst that could happen by doing it?" :rolleyes:
 
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" I think that when Knight designed the gun they made a decision about what the minimum barrel length should be to deliver the accuracy that it would be expected to deliver."

It has been my experience that most Gun are design by marketing rather than engineering. What is popular is more important than performance.

My plans for the knight is to build a short, fast to shoulder, quick reloading deer/elk rifle. The plastic stock will be replaced with a laminated left hand stock and fixed 4x scope will take care of the aiming. Since a scope is being used for sighting the sight radius is not an issue. The barrel will be recrowned when shortened so accuracy should not be effected.
The major performance question is bullet speed. I may just have to hit the pawn shops and buy a cheep muzzle loader and spend a day with a Chrony and a hacksaw.
As for why? well because I want something different, useful and that fits my short arms.

Thanks for your post Arcticap
 
I really don't want to disagree with the claim that it was a marketing decision to design the barrel that length, but I will. :D
Knight is all about building 100 yard accuracy for hunters.
That's what their reputation is based on due to competiton with the guns of other companies, and that helps to sell their guns.
Also, the longer heavier saboted bullets and conicals used for elk hunting require more stabilization.
The difference in barrel length between a standard model and a long range model is about 4" - 6", with 28 inches being about max.
The accuracy difference is noticiable between these models when shooting medium weight bullet/sabot combo.'s.
So that could be even more noticiable with an even shorter barrel.
Velocity might not be as important as the length of the barrel with twist needed to stabilize heavier, longer bullets.
20 inches is a very short barrel for a ML rifle to reach out with in my opinion. My 20 gauge rifled pump shotgun barrel is about that long and it doesn't shoot anywhere near as good as my heavy 24" H&R single shot which will drive tacks. That's with the same ammo and twist rates.
So the performance may or may not matter much depending on which ammo is chosen to be used. But the barrel length could limit ammo options.
For shooting elk bullets, I think that a longer barrel would be better. And I just don't think that the barrel length decision was based on marketing, but rather on the economy of the muzzle loader's efficiency, i.e.- cost, performance and ergonomic considerations. :)
 
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I will grant you that Knight is a company built on the idea of building a better, modern front loading rifle. One could argue the Knight set the wheels in motion that has turn muzzleloaders into single shot caseless ammo rifles.

Barrel length:
It takes very little barrel length to stabilize a bullet. Think about Elmer Keith and his long distance rabbit and deer shots with a 44 mag or 20" 308 target rifles. The twist rate of the rifling will get the bullet spinning in just a few inches. The real question is how much space will the powder need to burn to get the bullet up to speed. I hope that there is a formula somewhere that could get me a rough answer.

This rifle is not an heirloom nor does it have any value beyond it's ability to pretend to be a 45/70:D
 
I think I'll have to side with arcticap on this one.

My 22" USAK shoots best when shooting at 1500fps and I figure all muzzlaloaders have a similiar sweet spot based upon the length and twist of the barrel.

Shortening the barrel is indeed going to lower your velocity - just how much is yet to be seen. But the bigger problem is that you are going to have to reduce your powder load as well to try to maintain accuracy as all the still burning powder that flies out the shortened muzzle with your bullet affects accuracy.
So you are looking at a double whammy. I my rifle's case, say shortening the barrel reduced velocity 100fps and then having to reduce the powder load slows it another 100 to 200fps......................I might as well be using a high-powered pellet gun to hunt with.

You would have to approach this like your would reloading cartridges. A shorter barrel will require a faster power to try and get a complete burn before leaving the barrel, without pushing the bullet faster than it can stabilize itself in flight.................unfortunately there are but a few powder options for muzzleloading unlike the 100+ smokeless powders available for cartridge reloading.

Plus shortening the barrel is really gonna affect the feel of the rifle when leveling it to shoot. I love the feel of the heavier muzzleloading barrels when shooting off-hand as the balance just feels RIGHT. A shortened barrel won't feel the same way PLUS the reduced weight will increase felt recoil.

In my mind - this is a lose-lose situation.
But that's just me.
 
Well how about building a BullPup?

Ok how about trying on my Plan B.

BULL-PUP INLINE?

With the full length barrel and action coming in at 29.5" cocked it would seem that a bull-pup could be built at 32". If I use a 209 ignition system and some cleaver trigger designing IT could work.
drill and tap scope mounts out on the barrel like a scout rifle but use a regular scope.//\\//
 
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