New addition to my Russian family, and ammo question.

[Deus Machina]

Just went and grabbed a Nagant. Was hoping for a 91/30, but an M44 will do. All matching numbers, and if the bore wasn't a little dark, I'd swear it had never been shot!

I recognize the soviet crest, I'm certain that's the model (if not the date of manufactur, which is likely too much to hope) and recognize the Izhevsk stamp, but does anyone recognize the partial one next to it?

Any further clarification would be nice, too. I've got the Nagant Curiosity.

Also, the ammo: Bulgarian (IIRC), headstamped 89 (top) and 3 (bottom), brass-cased (woo!) and attracted to a magnet. I can't figure out if it's steel-core or copper-washed steel jacket. A few (from the same wrapper! I'm sure there will be more) have wrinkles at the neck.

Safe to shoot, or should I pull the one on the left, in particular, and zap a dremel through the bullet to check which part is steel?

Me and a friend stopped by the shop. Between the two of us, we got two Nagants (his is a Hungarian M44, and in more 'Nagant condition'), a 440-round can of ammo, fast food for two (and he's a 300-pound eater!) and probably seven pounds of cosmoline between us, all for the sum of $240.

 

[MrIzhevsk]

the mark looks almost like a cube, like a 3D drawing. Maybe its a mark that means it went back to the factory at some point for repairs?

Haha I just realized how un-worthy of my user name I am seeing as how I don't even know the markings on an Izhevsk M44. Very nice looking M44 btw, much cleaner stock than mine!

 

[rangerruck]

all good to fire, chances are your accuracy with the bayo extended will be crap. also chances are, anything in the 165-175 grain weight will be most accurate, with pretty good accuracy from the 180's and 200's new made.
if you dont' wanna keep the bayo, take it off, and grind off the mount. much lighter and more accurate.
go here for further details...
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp
http://7.62x54r.net/

 

[jonnyc]

Just FYI, the ammo is Albanian.

 

[4Freedom]

Sorry I am new to rifles, but I like to know. Are these rifles strictly for decoration or do they actually hold up as a real defense weapon? I mean if you had to go up against a person armed with modern weapon, how would this weapon help you? I see they are dirt cheap and kinda cool looking, but I wonder if they are actually effective defense tools? I know they have long range accuracy, but do you have to load them one bullet at a time or can you use them with magazines?

 

[Mp7]

Here´s a video, that demontrates it better than words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXRY2j3RaUs

 

[Pulse]

effectiv defense tool?
if you are a good shooter, a good hit from a WWII battle rifle will most certainly put a messy end to any two legged thread.
if you are used to operating the bolt, you can fire about once every 2 seconds with a Mosin.
they are feed from a internal magazin, wich you fill with a stripper clip.

if i could choose a weapon for a upcoming Homedefense situation, it would not be a bolt action gun.

 

[4Freedom]

Well, I think if you get hit by any gun, your days can be numbered. Especially a high caliber gun. What i mean is, if you need to stock up on a gun for defense, would you really use this gun? I am sure if you are a sharpshooter it has its benefits for much lower price than an AR. I still feel bad that good quality AK47s are cheaper in most countries than these Nagants are in USA. Would a high caliber AK style sniper rifle, like Draganuv be more effective than this weapon if the person is skilled with each weapon? I know in USA they are dang expensive, but I cannot imagine they are elsewhere in the world.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

The Mosin probably wouldn't hold it's own against a modern weapon for two reasons:

1.) There's the disadvantage of a nearly ancient turn-bolt design versus the modern and revolutionary auto-loader.

But, the Mosin is less likely to jam than an auto-loader if you load the shells onto the stripper clip right. You've gotta stair-step the shells otherwise you get rim-lock. My Mosin has been covered with crud, and it still fired. There was a fellow on this very site, though I don't remember his name, he had a primer fall out of a shell casing and wedge itself into the trigger and sear assembly. The gun still fired, and if I recall correctly, was very difficult to pull the trigger, but it still fired. Any modern gun would probably fail.

2.) You have to have the right ammo, and make sure there isn't any cosmoline in the chamber in the lug grooves, otherwise you get the sticky-bolt syndrome I like to call Stikkusiboltitis. If you can't cycle the gun easily enough, you're done for against an auto-loader. However, if the enemy was armed with another Mosin, it'd be a race to see who can cycle the fastest.

As a proud owner of a Nagant, I feel that the Mosin is a wonderful, cheap, fun to shoot rifle, but it won't hold it's own in the world of auto-loaders unless you clean it up really good and avoid steel-cased ammo.

Just my two pennies.

 

[Pulse]

if i had to choose a bolt Action gun for Defense, it probably would be something along the line of a SMLE or K31, not a Mosin.

if you talk about Homedefense, nothing beats a shotgun or Pistol, those WW2 Battlerifles will send a bullet through the bad guy, through your house in to the next house and still pack enough power to kill a innocent.
now if you are on a Farm and feel the need to reach out and touch someone out in the field, i would still prefer something Semi in 5.56mm.
if you ever feel the need to reach out further then 500meters, then i would chose a boltaction and i would be happy with a SMLE or K31, but I can not imagin a scenario where you have to defend your self at 500+ meters.

 

[4Freedom]

Hey Pulse you are swiss? In USA it is illegal to shoot an intruder outside your house.. Unless he is shooting at you of course. So, in most cases taking down an intruder at long range is not the issue, but at close range. I think many would think the WWII bolt rifles are for SHTF scenarios, in the case you have terrorists outside at a distance firing at you or something like that. Not everyday defense scenario.

BTW. Mosinfreak.. I am purchasing bunch of steel ammo for plinking for my AR today.. Many have told me it will be ok if I clean it.. I hope you don't think I will ruin or degrade my AR guns by doing this. I don't know how steel case rounds handle in Mosin or Nagant gun. I don't know much about these guns except they are pretty. Like civil war rifle on steroids. Nicely crafted and wood, gives it a nice natural, traditional feel too. ARs are savvy, new agey and hi-tech looking. AKs are the ugly russian sisters. Although I admit many AKs have been redesigned to look quite pretty too.. As for as accuracy, I wonder if there is such thing as an highly accurate AK? Of course, I am not gun collector, so I want what is most efficient for defense and if needed in SHTF, offense. lol.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

There is nothing really wrong with steel cased rounds, per se, but in a Mosin Nagant, it can cause sticky bolt syndrome.

Steel cased ammo through your AR should be alright as long as the laquer coating is cleaned out at regular intervals.

Just trying to help, :/

 

[WardenWolf]

You got a beauty. Just be sure to clean her well after every use so corrosive ammo won't wreck her.

1944 was the date of manufacture. The square with the X means it was rearsenaled.

Given the late war manufacture, chances are your rifle never made it to the front lines and never saw action in WW2.

 

[foghornl]

The number 3 on the headstamp indicates Albanian ammo..."89" is for 1989, year of manufacture.

Some sort of wash on the steel-case ammo, IIRC. Albanian ammo is well known for wrinkles in the cases. I have shot some that 'dinged' without problem, but if the dings are much deeper than those you show, no.

 

[expvideo]

I recognize the soviet crest, I'm certain that's the model (if not the date of manufactur, which is likely too much to hope) and recognize the Izhevsk stamp, but does anyone recognize the partial one next to it?

Don't recognize the stamp next to the Izhevsk stamp. Other than that, you are right that this is a Soviet M44, manufactured in 1944 at Izhevsk in Russia. The 1944 is the year of manufacture, not the model. Mine says 1945, but has the same markings otherwise. (I should say "my dad's", since I gave it to him, but it was mine once)

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I would be wary of your ammo, though the rifle looks quite nice.

As to Mosin-Nagant as a defense piece.... Look Mosin Nagants have only ne real advantage: They are the most durable battle rifle probably ever. Most definitely of the WWI-era of rifle design. Problem is, most of them have poor grouping performance. The sights are no treasure. The bolt is slow, and the rifle recoils alot more than it has to.

Ballistically, to me, the cartridge is just excellent. You are getting .30-06 performance out of a much shorter case. The heavier bullets are truly 1000 yard loadings.

You are far better served with a K.31, Mauser, or Lee-Enfield. Frankly, the Mosin was probably the 2nd worst rifle of WWI, and the worst rifle of WWII.

Also, keep in mind, these guns are for SHTF only. And for SHTF, a semi-auto in intermediate caliber is best (ie AK, AR-15, AR-180, Ruger Mini-14, etc.) or a full sized battle rifle like G3, FAL, M1-A.

The one place such a gun can shine is in long range target interdiction. A 500 yard shot. And, the K.31, and Mauser rifles (scoped) are going to tend to do much better in that role than your MN.

Enjoy it for what it is: A plinker that has really cheap ammo right now that you can shoot as long as your shoulder lets you.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Mordechai,

Not all Mosins are inaccurate. My M44 can hit soda cans as far as I can actually see them behing the front post (on their sides, shooting into the top of the can), so about 75-80 yards, and I hit them consistantly.

I wouldn't say worst of them all, or inaccurate; they served their purpose, and were able to take down the opposition at considerable ranges. Two people that come to mind are Simo Hayha and Vassili Zaitsev. Both used mosins.

 

[Deus Machina]

I knew it was an M44, thought the stamp was manufacture.

So, rearseneled--anything to consider, from a collector's point of view, or is it just noted that it was issued, then taken back?

I checked the ammo--it is NOT steel-cased. Unless there's some steel they used that isn't attracted to a magnet. From what I can tell--and I tore one of the actual bullets apart with pliers--is that is is a copper-washed steel jacket. I know for certain it's steel-core, and the jacket fragments are still stuck to the magnet.

I know about the corrosive ammo, though. I just filled the oiler bottle that came with my Saiga (all my rifles are Russian!) with Windex.

Next up: modifying the front sight post for elevation adjustment, then bore-sighting it so it's roughly in the area before test-shooting.

Anything I should do before that? Such an early-manufacture looker like this, I think I want to keep every mod reversible.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

A rearsenalled Mosin nagant was so they could have them ready for another war if they needed them. Rearsenalling the weapons had varied repairs, such as retro-fitting a new stock, replacing broken or missing parts, and on the rifles that needed it, counter-boring the rifle to restore the muzzle with a sharp crown to ensure accuracy. Some of these factory rearsenalled rifles had some electro-penciled markings on the gun. Look around and you may just find such a mark. Mine didn't. Mine's all matching, and the only thing done to it being rearsenalled is the counter-boring, going 3/4s to 1" into my bore.

What a really good find is finding a nagant in great condition that hasn't been rearsenalled.

BTW, our Mosin's arent too far apart, your rifle was the 4,101st rifle after mine, lol.

 

[Deus Machina]

Ahh. Thanks for clearing that up.

No electropencil markings on mine, and the stock's only marks are a 0 under the buttplate.

Think it could have standard a counterbore--the only wear in the barrel is a spot of rust just behind the crown. May be time to break out the polishing compound to see if I can't buff that out.

 

[NCsmitty]

The Albanian ammo is light ball, 149gr BT and they are brass case with a steel core bullet. I have some '86 Albanian and it has no dents or wrinkles. Here's a link to an informative Mosin site.

http://7.62x54r.net/

I see that it's already been mentioned.

NCsmitty

 

[GD]

There have been a number of misconceptions mentioned.
One, a normal mosin will not get rim lock. Unlike other rimmed cartridged rifles like the Enfield, the mosin has something called an interruptor. This part keeps the next round low so that the cartridge being slid into the chamber will not lock its rim against the next round.
Two, extending the bayonet on a M44 in most cases will actually improve accuracy. These rifles were sighted in with the bayonet extended. I have found in general the point of impact changes at least 4 inches between the 2 scenarios.
Albanian ammo is notorious for having varying rim thickness and creased cases. It is also well know for being reliable and consistently accurate ammo. The only problem I have had with this ammo is with some of my mosins being sensitive to thicker rims when chambering.
Sticky bolt syndrome is a combination of rough and/or dirty chambers and lacquer coated ammo. I have 1 mosin that is sticky with everything. I have a couple of mosins that only stick with the lacquered Czech silver tip ammo but extract everything else.
As far as bolt guns being obsolete in modern warefare. You better tell that to the U.S. snipers in the gulf who are using bolt guns.
Where I live in the vast prairies of Kansas, I can start engaging targets at nearly 1000 yards with my more accurate scoped Finnish mosins. I would think that would have some advantages in modern warfare. By the time a enemy with an AK or AR got within their effective range from 1000 yards, I would have sent quite a few effective rounds their way.
What modern guerilla warfare has taught us is that you cannot fight a modern army on their terms. A guerilla can engage an enemy with an accurate bolt gun but better not stick around long.

 

[4Freedom]

With the invention of more accurate long range AKs and ARs, are bolt guns going to lose their effectiveness? I see lot of these semi auto long range AK guns like Dragonuv and now they are manufacturing ARs they claim are every bit as accurate as bolt guns. What is the future of bolt guns you think? Maybe they still serve some purpose, but as automatic rifles become more and more accurate and range accuracy increases, do these guns have a future? I mean shotguns revolutionized the civil war and made muskets obsolete.

 

[RioShooter]

Also, keep in mind, these guns are for SHTF only. And for SHTF, a semi-auto in intermediate caliber is best (ie AK, AR-15, AR-180, Ruger Mini-14, etc.) or a full sized battle rifle like G3, FAL, M1-A.

You should also consider an SKS.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

GD, I miss typed the whole Rim-lock thing, as I was refering to the statement from my experience. I have to stair-step the shells in the stripper clip for them to work reliably in my rifle.

He is also talking about a bolt gun being used in home defense, which isn't really adequate unless they're a distance off. They can keep pulling the trigger with an autoloader, you've got to work the bolt on the bolt gun.

Snipers are usually detached from the close fighting, so they generally don't need to worry about needing 30+ rounds at their disposal. But, the spotter is equipped with a SOPMOD M4 should the need arise.