HBK
member
I don't care who he was or what he was doing, it's immaterial. He was an American citizen and he didn't deserve what he got. He was trying to make Iraq a better place and paid for it with his life.
New beheading thread
- Thread starter Monkeyleg
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grampster
Member
________________________________________________________
"The problem is not Muslims. The problem is fanatics. Same trouble we have with gun grabbers"
_________________________________________________________
I concur. The operative word is "fanatic". They come in all sizes, shapes, colors, sexes, locations and religious backgrounds. As for whether the claim that this was in retaliation.......bullS***!....This was for shock effect done by evil men for their own perverted reasons attempting to shift some of the stone age evil that they spew toward the forces of Western civilization. It is not our fault! we did not start this! We don't want your countries, your people....or anything except to peacefully do business with you. We are capitalists not colonialists. There is a difference, but most blissninnies don't understand this. These fanatics want us all DEAD and they want the REST OF THE WORLD under their dominion, period. They are the colonialists. Methods or reasons don't matter.
To lend some moral equivilancy to stripping men nude, posing them and making them wear women's underwear or scaring them with a leashed barking dog, with sawing a living man's head off while praising what passes for their god is absolutely without merit. To suggest that the dumb a** troop that participated in the humiliation should take some blame for the barbaric murder of Mr. Berg (a Jew, by the way) is beyond belief and I am ashamed that anyone on this board would even think let alone say this.
:banghead: grampster
"The problem is not Muslims. The problem is fanatics. Same trouble we have with gun grabbers"
_________________________________________________________
I concur. The operative word is "fanatic". They come in all sizes, shapes, colors, sexes, locations and religious backgrounds. As for whether the claim that this was in retaliation.......bullS***!....This was for shock effect done by evil men for their own perverted reasons attempting to shift some of the stone age evil that they spew toward the forces of Western civilization. It is not our fault! we did not start this! We don't want your countries, your people....or anything except to peacefully do business with you. We are capitalists not colonialists. There is a difference, but most blissninnies don't understand this. These fanatics want us all DEAD and they want the REST OF THE WORLD under their dominion, period. They are the colonialists. Methods or reasons don't matter.
To lend some moral equivilancy to stripping men nude, posing them and making them wear women's underwear or scaring them with a leashed barking dog, with sawing a living man's head off while praising what passes for their god is absolutely without merit. To suggest that the dumb a** troop that participated in the humiliation should take some blame for the barbaric murder of Mr. Berg (a Jew, by the way) is beyond belief and I am ashamed that anyone on this board would even think let alone say this.
:banghead: grampster
ojibweindian
Member
I completely agree.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Americans have become so far detached from the barbarism that is most of the world's way of life that the obvious shocks us. We are fighting religious fanatics and the Arab equivalent of deposed Nazis, and the fact that they like to murder unarmed Americans is somehow shocking? This is reality, folks. Look into the face of your enemy as he saws that man's head off.
Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong.
Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong.
gunbot
Member
Violent, animalistic behavior on the part of terrorists justified by Koranic verses taken out of context is a cancer on the religion of Islam and the human beings who peacefully practice their faith.
In humans, many cancers will, if left untreated, progress to the point where the patient dies; usually following a protracted, pain filled struggle.
We seek the treatment modalities of surgery, chemotherapy, radiation therapy or a combination of them. To my limited knowledge, cancer has never been effectively treated by negotiation, bargaining or capitulation.
This cancer is running rampant in the Islamic world. Unlike other cancers, it is contagious. We are attempting surgery with little if any progress.
Perhaps a more aggressive treatment approach is necessary; chemo or radiation. Otherwise, the patient will die and perhaps take us with them.
In humans, many cancers will, if left untreated, progress to the point where the patient dies; usually following a protracted, pain filled struggle.
We seek the treatment modalities of surgery, chemotherapy, radiation therapy or a combination of them. To my limited knowledge, cancer has never been effectively treated by negotiation, bargaining or capitulation.
This cancer is running rampant in the Islamic world. Unlike other cancers, it is contagious. We are attempting surgery with little if any progress.
Perhaps a more aggressive treatment approach is necessary; chemo or radiation. Otherwise, the patient will die and perhaps take us with them.
Plinkerton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 477
Just in case any of you missed it. THIS is what I said:
I didn't say he deserved it. I didn't say it was his fault. I didn't say he was a hippie bum picking vegetables. What I said was that I have NO agenda to place blame . This means, I am not blaming anyone. None of his execution even came remotely close to being justified by whoever did it.
What I am simply stating, is that I would hope he was at least AWARE of the possible risks to his health and livelihood. If he wasn't, THEN I will go so far as to say he was living in a bubble. None of that matters though. He had every right to be there, and every right not to be killed or hurt. I'm just saying that there are better, safer places to go.
If I were an independent contractor, my job, and money, would not drive me to go to a place where many of the people hated Americans, and were known for extremely barbaric ways. I'm sure being there, besides his horrible demise, was a great experience for him, and I would imagine it made him much more thankful for his life here in America. It's a shame that it ended the way it did.
I am not comparing the two. I'm not stating that the troops should take blame. I think that the murder was done purely to cause trouble. I think while they may have disliked what the troops did to the prisoners, but I doubt that was the only reason to go find an American and kill them. For this reason, I don't think the troops should feel responsible. IF, the sole reason for the murder was because of revenge for the abuse of prisoners, I may think different, but I don't think that was the case.
Either way, I DO hope that the event of Mr. Berg's death can show the troops who commited the abuse that certain events have the possibility to lead to other, much worse events, even in a roundabout way.
Also, I'm not sure if all the facts are out yet, but it seems like there were possibilities of more than just making the prisoners be naked, wear women's clothes, and "scare" them with a barking dog. That alone may not be a big deal to us. But, if the other things that have been accused are true, there is a different problem. There is no justification for pissing on people, sticking things in their as*es, letting dogs bite them, tying wires to parts of their bodies and possibly their genitals, and beating them with sticks.
Also, we should take into consideration the fact that cultures are different. For us, being humiliated by a woman is not the end of the world, but for other cultures, it bears a MUCH stronger moral and mental atrocity.
Not that ANY of this, no matter how bad it got can be justification for the brutal murder, but, if more is true than just "simple" humiliation, I don't think it should be glossed over.
Also, if I think it, I will say it. I have no reason to hide behind my opinions, because other people don't agree with me. I think you may find I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Lastly, why does it matter if he was a Jew?
I didn't say he deserved it. I didn't say it was his fault. I didn't say he was a hippie bum picking vegetables. What I said was that I have NO agenda to place blame . This means, I am not blaming anyone. None of his execution even came remotely close to being justified by whoever did it.
What I am simply stating, is that I would hope he was at least AWARE of the possible risks to his health and livelihood. If he wasn't, THEN I will go so far as to say he was living in a bubble. None of that matters though. He had every right to be there, and every right not to be killed or hurt. I'm just saying that there are better, safer places to go.
If I were an independent contractor, my job, and money, would not drive me to go to a place where many of the people hated Americans, and were known for extremely barbaric ways. I'm sure being there, besides his horrible demise, was a great experience for him, and I would imagine it made him much more thankful for his life here in America. It's a shame that it ended the way it did.
I am not comparing the two. I'm not stating that the troops should take blame. I think that the murder was done purely to cause trouble. I think while they may have disliked what the troops did to the prisoners, but I doubt that was the only reason to go find an American and kill them. For this reason, I don't think the troops should feel responsible. IF, the sole reason for the murder was because of revenge for the abuse of prisoners, I may think different, but I don't think that was the case.
Either way, I DO hope that the event of Mr. Berg's death can show the troops who commited the abuse that certain events have the possibility to lead to other, much worse events, even in a roundabout way.
Also, I'm not sure if all the facts are out yet, but it seems like there were possibilities of more than just making the prisoners be naked, wear women's clothes, and "scare" them with a barking dog. That alone may not be a big deal to us. But, if the other things that have been accused are true, there is a different problem. There is no justification for pissing on people, sticking things in their as*es, letting dogs bite them, tying wires to parts of their bodies and possibly their genitals, and beating them with sticks.
Also, we should take into consideration the fact that cultures are different. For us, being humiliated by a woman is not the end of the world, but for other cultures, it bears a MUCH stronger moral and mental atrocity.
Not that ANY of this, no matter how bad it got can be justification for the brutal murder, but, if more is true than just "simple" humiliation, I don't think it should be glossed over.
Also, if I think it, I will say it. I have no reason to hide behind my opinions, because other people don't agree with me. I think you may find I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Lastly, why does it matter if he was a Jew?
ojibweindian
Member
Put your head and the chopping block and you might be able to answer your own question.
fix
Member
sendec,
In some ways I feel the same way you do. I've been exposed to some pretty nasty things in my short 30 years on this earth, and my wife says that's the reason I am not as utterly horrified over this incident as many are. Maybe the same applies to you.
In some ways I feel the same way you do. I've been exposed to some pretty nasty things in my short 30 years on this earth, and my wife says that's the reason I am not as utterly horrified over this incident as many are. Maybe the same applies to you.
DonP
Member
Human sacrifice feel to it?
The whole thing had kind of a weird human sacrifice tone to it, IMHO.
They are cutting the poor man's throat, while he screams his life out, and all the while they are chanting and shouting "Praise to Allah", "Allah is Great". I guess their particular brand of Allah appreciates human blood.
The whole thing felt like I was watching a human sacrifice on some old movie. Part of a "normal" ritual by some primitive religion making a sacrifice to Baal or other graven image.
Not meant as an indictment of Islam as a whole, unless of course the Islamic rulers or major spokespersons just sit down, shut up and don't comment on the atrocity. In a case like this silence is not an option. After all they were all very quick to be vocal eailer iin the week about "humiliated" prisoners.
The whole thing had kind of a weird human sacrifice tone to it, IMHO.
They are cutting the poor man's throat, while he screams his life out, and all the while they are chanting and shouting "Praise to Allah", "Allah is Great". I guess their particular brand of Allah appreciates human blood.
The whole thing felt like I was watching a human sacrifice on some old movie. Part of a "normal" ritual by some primitive religion making a sacrifice to Baal or other graven image.
Not meant as an indictment of Islam as a whole, unless of course the Islamic rulers or major spokespersons just sit down, shut up and don't comment on the atrocity. In a case like this silence is not an option. After all they were all very quick to be vocal eailer iin the week about "humiliated" prisoners.
HBK
member
Plinkerton, I wasn't directed my comments toward you at all. It is a good point that he didn't use very good judgement. Walking around Iraq probably isn't a smart thing to do if you're an American. I am still in shock at the brutality of it. I've seen some bad things, but never anything like that.
Plinkerton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 477
HBK: Thanks. I wasn't specifically aiming at you either.
Overall, everone, I think it's all crazy. It was so brutal, but I don't think we should focus on that. He is dead, and I doubt if he cares what happens now, being dead and all.
Something definitely needs to be done, and I have nothing against some sort of aggression towards certain people in Iraq.
Overall, everything is being handled somewhat well, and I have no specific argument with anyone.
The prisoner abuse? Big deal. it happend and its over with. War is war, and sh*t happens.
Sometimes though, I get a little sick of the "holier than thou" attitude that America SOMETIMES seems to have.
Whether they actually do or not, it just seems that way sometimes.
I don't know where I'm going with this.
Overall, everone, I think it's all crazy. It was so brutal, but I don't think we should focus on that. He is dead, and I doubt if he cares what happens now, being dead and all.
Something definitely needs to be done, and I have nothing against some sort of aggression towards certain people in Iraq.
Overall, everything is being handled somewhat well, and I have no specific argument with anyone.
The prisoner abuse? Big deal. it happend and its over with. War is war, and sh*t happens.
Sometimes though, I get a little sick of the "holier than thou" attitude that America SOMETIMES seems to have.
Whether they actually do or not, it just seems that way sometimes.
I don't know where I'm going with this.
Plinkerton-
I think you are on to something about the attitude typical Americans have. We see war as a sterile video feed of a JDAMS going through a precisely chosen window, or FLIR from an Apache. Getting beheaded by a tomahawk or a Tomahawk still results in the same thing, we just prefer our carnage clean. We are outraged by the Berg killing, but we should be outraged by all the killing, not one in particular because it is so ugly.
Video of people being beheaded is'nt new, or news. It is fairly common in the Mid- and Far East. But when it happens to a blond hair blue eyed American we seem to all of a sudden realize that maybe we are'nt as invincible as we thought.
For all of us crying for blood from the safety of our PCs, maybe we should stop and think about what it looks, and sounds, and smells like when somebody dies violently. I'm guessing that Bush and Rumsfeld have not experienced it.
I am a big fan of violence - it is an incredibly useful tool. But there is a certain truth to reaping what you sow. If we dont have the stomach for it we need to find a better way. Cause otherwise it is not gonna change. There'll be more Bergs, and more cyalumes up asses, until we focus and get the job done, or get out.
I think you are on to something about the attitude typical Americans have. We see war as a sterile video feed of a JDAMS going through a precisely chosen window, or FLIR from an Apache. Getting beheaded by a tomahawk or a Tomahawk still results in the same thing, we just prefer our carnage clean. We are outraged by the Berg killing, but we should be outraged by all the killing, not one in particular because it is so ugly.
Video of people being beheaded is'nt new, or news. It is fairly common in the Mid- and Far East. But when it happens to a blond hair blue eyed American we seem to all of a sudden realize that maybe we are'nt as invincible as we thought.
For all of us crying for blood from the safety of our PCs, maybe we should stop and think about what it looks, and sounds, and smells like when somebody dies violently. I'm guessing that Bush and Rumsfeld have not experienced it.
I am a big fan of violence - it is an incredibly useful tool. But there is a certain truth to reaping what you sow. If we dont have the stomach for it we need to find a better way. Cause otherwise it is not gonna change. There'll be more Bergs, and more cyalumes up asses, until we focus and get the job done, or get out.
Monkeyleg
Member.
sendec, I believe you just reinforced my point.
horge
Member
sendec,
There's a big difference between accidentally involving non-combatants,
and specifically targeting them. War is war and ugly stuff happens to innocents, yes,
but it is the intentions and best efforts that separate us from those animals.
America has quite a legitimate claim on the 'more righteous than thou' standpoint:
the coalition has gone to great pains to not merely avoid civilian casualties,
but to extend aid and redress to those affected, and to the general Iraqi population.
The enemy offers them incitement of hatred and a renunciation of their humanity.
-----------
Let's not try to dilute the evil of the Berg murder.
There ARE many beheading videos perpetrated and disseminated by Muslims,
but many of these are in conjunction with Sharia court judgements.
The convicted are sometimes even given the benefit of a sedative/soporific,
and the cut is clean and quick.
Not so, this murder of Berg:
this was a deliberate kidnapping, torture and murder of a KNOWN innocent.
There's a big difference between accidentally involving non-combatants,
and specifically targeting them. War is war and ugly stuff happens to innocents, yes,
but it is the intentions and best efforts that separate us from those animals.
America has quite a legitimate claim on the 'more righteous than thou' standpoint:
the coalition has gone to great pains to not merely avoid civilian casualties,
but to extend aid and redress to those affected, and to the general Iraqi population.
The enemy offers them incitement of hatred and a renunciation of their humanity.
-----------
Let's not try to dilute the evil of the Berg murder.
There ARE many beheading videos perpetrated and disseminated by Muslims,
but many of these are in conjunction with Sharia court judgements.
The convicted are sometimes even given the benefit of a sedative/soporific,
and the cut is clean and quick.
Not so, this murder of Berg:
this was a deliberate kidnapping, torture and murder of a KNOWN innocent.
Mr Kablammo
Member
The element of human sacrifice...consider that the Shaheeds in Israel make videos and their 'martrydom operations' are sanctioned by clerics as a valid method of delivery, detonation, and dispatch. Human sacrifice has again been unloosed as a form of worship. According to the rules of the clerics, sin is expiated by killing and dying in Jihad. Therefore, as the targets of Jihad we are the sacrificial animals whose blood gains paradise for the warriors. Until you understand this basic interplay of sin, guilt, sacrifice, and being the sacrificial animal, you do not understand the true nature of this war. Once you understand that you and your family are useful to our enemies as sacrificial offerings, you will understand that this a war to your finish; or that of the enemy. Read on the prophet Elijah and learn.
Too true, I fear. I just had a discussion along these lines with a guy at work today. We came to the sad conclusion that the public won't wake up until terrorists start shooting up kindergartens on U.S. soil, and maybe not even then -- many will still be wringing their hands and asking what America needs to do to be loved by these savages.
It's not like it's any big secret what these psychotics have in mind for us. They've declared their war on our way of life. They've more than amply demonstrated that they have the will and intent to slaughter us like sheep, and that all they lack at the moment is the means to deliver on that promise. But most Americans, being basically decent sorts, naiively continue to believe that nobody could be THAT bad, that nobody is really EVIL, that if we just reach out to them, understand them...
Bull. Maybe this video will wake a few people up before it's too late, before we are just another footnote in the history books, the modern Carthage.
capt_happypants
Member In Memoriam
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2003
- Messages
- 304
Ultimately, the logistics of small-unit terror aren't hard, so the question begs to be asked: Why not?
I'm guessing that a holy warrior hell-bent on his 72 pieces of eternal bliss is far more likely to pick up his AK and cross the border into Iraq, instead of flying to DIA. If there's one bright spot in the WoT, this is the one. Iraq is the Big Target, and thank God that we send about 10 of them into the afterlife, for every one of ours.
I dread the day when that scenario comes true. But I think it's inevitable.
I'm guessing that a holy warrior hell-bent on his 72 pieces of eternal bliss is far more likely to pick up his AK and cross the border into Iraq, instead of flying to DIA. If there's one bright spot in the WoT, this is the one. Iraq is the Big Target, and thank God that we send about 10 of them into the afterlife, for every one of ours.
I dread the day when that scenario comes true. But I think it's inevitable.
ravinraven
Member
They're great. We aren't! Right.
"Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong."
Sure the terrorists pigs are morally equiv. Their cause is just ours is not. Just ask anyone from Looneywood, most anyone from any University and about half to three quarters of the news media perverts along with the terrorist enablers in congress.
And another interesting thought. There are tons of Muslims around the country. Way up here 75 miles north of the USArmy's Artic Training Base, we have many of them. One is a drinking buddy of mine who has a house in Baghdad. [And we don't drink RC] But, how many are capable of grabbing people off our streets right here and doing the Osama boogey with them? How do you tell the difference between those who never would do such a thing and the others? What do we do if that happens.
This WOT sure has endless possibilities for people with great imaginations.
rr
__________________
"Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong."
Sure the terrorists pigs are morally equiv. Their cause is just ours is not. Just ask anyone from Looneywood, most anyone from any University and about half to three quarters of the news media perverts along with the terrorist enablers in congress.
And another interesting thought. There are tons of Muslims around the country. Way up here 75 miles north of the USArmy's Artic Training Base, we have many of them. One is a drinking buddy of mine who has a house in Baghdad. [And we don't drink RC] But, how many are capable of grabbing people off our streets right here and doing the Osama boogey with them? How do you tell the difference between those who never would do such a thing and the others? What do we do if that happens.
This WOT sure has endless possibilities for people with great imaginations.
rr
__________________
gulogulo1970
Member
I don't like to hate. But I do truly hate this enemy. I hate when they murder in their gods name. I hate their cowardly tactics of shooting from holy ground and hiding among civillians and shooting at our soldiers. I hate how "our" media will soon forget this murder and then will still dwell on the dishonorable actions of our MP's. It fills me with an uncomfortable rage. My emotions are very post 9/11 right now.
The only good is it reminds us that we are still at war with an enemy that has to be destroyed. The sense of detachment is over for alot of americans. I feel powerless to help. I see no national war effort. My question is what can the aveage american do to help the war effort? Is there anything we can do other than get angry and hate the enemy?
The only good is it reminds us that we are still at war with an enemy that has to be destroyed. The sense of detachment is over for alot of americans. I feel powerless to help. I see no national war effort. My question is what can the aveage american do to help the war effort? Is there anything we can do other than get angry and hate the enemy?
This was the most sadistic and brutal thing I have ever witnessed.
Their god is satan.
If I were President Bush, I would withdraw every Allied trooper.
Then I would muster every flyable aircraft in our arsenal and load them down with napalm and MOABs and then wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants.
May our God busy his hands sorting out the innocents.
Prison scandal? That wasn't even noteworthy college initiation material.
I say we're fighting the wrong war, we need to be kicking these liberals out of our country, send them to Iraq.
Their god is satan.
If I were President Bush, I would withdraw every Allied trooper.
Then I would muster every flyable aircraft in our arsenal and load them down with napalm and MOABs and then wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants.
May our God busy his hands sorting out the innocents.
Prison scandal? That wasn't even noteworthy college initiation material.
I say we're fighting the wrong war, we need to be kicking these liberals out of our country, send them to Iraq.
CannibalCrowley
Member
amprecon
The tactics of the terrorists have been implied by many groups throughout history, yet some people act like it's the first time it's happened. Sure we know more about what's going on, and the propaganda can be more efficiently distributed; but other than minor differences these tactics have been used before.
We can't fight a "standard" war and defeat this enemy, history has proven that much.
So killing innocent people is right when it's done by the U.S. ?
The tactics of the terrorists have been implied by many groups throughout history, yet some people act like it's the first time it's happened. Sure we know more about what's going on, and the propaganda can be more efficiently distributed; but other than minor differences these tactics have been used before.
We can't fight a "standard" war and defeat this enemy, history has proven that much.
Plinkerton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 477
"Our" media really needs to forget all the sh*t that goes on. The only thing they do is skew it in their own strange ways for one side or the other. EVERYONE has an agenda, no matter what it may be, and it can't help but bombard us through media.
If we didn't have the stupid media, blowing things way out of proportion, or not blowing them up enough, things would be a little saner.
Yes. You can join the army, and try your damndest to get sent over there so you can "KILL SOME IRAQI'S!" If you can't join the army, I suppose you could start a group, and then you could teach people how to hate Iraqi's and then they could spread the hate. Maybe if enough people hated them, more people would join the army, and then they could kill more of them.
It gets a little sickening to hear all the hate spewing from people's mouths all the time. Why don't we just kill all those as*holess, because that's what they are doing to us. What's the point of pretending we are any better than them? Let's just nuke the whole goddam country.
We could, as was so eloquently stated, "wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants."
Mmmm... doesn't that make you feel all warm and happy inside? I don't consider myself completely Liberal, but if spouting off all this nonsense is what it means to be a Conservative, I'll be a fu*king hippie Liberal any day.
If we didn't have the stupid media, blowing things way out of proportion, or not blowing them up enough, things would be a little saner.
Yes. You can join the army, and try your damndest to get sent over there so you can "KILL SOME IRAQI'S!" If you can't join the army, I suppose you could start a group, and then you could teach people how to hate Iraqi's and then they could spread the hate. Maybe if enough people hated them, more people would join the army, and then they could kill more of them.
It gets a little sickening to hear all the hate spewing from people's mouths all the time. Why don't we just kill all those as*holess, because that's what they are doing to us. What's the point of pretending we are any better than them? Let's just nuke the whole goddam country.
We could, as was so eloquently stated, "wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants."
Mmmm... doesn't that make you feel all warm and happy inside? I don't consider myself completely Liberal, but if spouting off all this nonsense is what it means to be a Conservative, I'll be a fu*king hippie Liberal any day.
HBK
member
I know you liberals would love to just give them all a nice big hug, but there's a reason people are saying what the stuff you find so distasteful. It's because the Muslim fanatics only understand ugly, painful death. Anything less is regarded as weakness.
johnr
Member
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1133927/posts
-The Berg Beheading- some links--
-The Berg Beheading- some links--
- Status