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'New' cartridges I'd like to see.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by trapshooter, Dec 29, 2002.

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  1. trapshooter

    trapshooter Member

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    A few other threads gave me this idea. What non-existant cartridges would you like to see created, and made commercially available? (IOW, what would you like to wildcat, and have it become successful?).

    As I mentioned in another thread I'd like an 8mm RUM, for starters, with a decent HPBT bullet.

    Also, a mid-.40's bullet necked down from a .50BMG case. Looking for velocity, trajectory, accuracy improvements without surrendering a bunch of downrange energy. What the heck, it's only hypothetical (I think).;)

    Anyone else?
     
  2. HSMITH

    HSMITH Member

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    338 Win short mag, with slightly better velocity than the 338 win mag, in a Model 70 Classic Featherweight sportin' a 22" tube. Looking for just under 7 1/2 pounds with a sling, scope and 2 or 3 rounds in it. Would be BRUTAL on both ends, but the elk would need to be VERY afraid:D .

    On another note I would like to see the VERY good 284 win chambered in more rifles on the shelf.
     
  3. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

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    22-44mag a 44 mag case necked down to 22
    Would be nasty on Ground hogs with a 45gr hp

    a 454 casull magnum for a single shot 1885 just a touch longer like 357 / 38 spec
     
  4. Frohickey

    Frohickey Member

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    This has been done already.
    Its called the 338Talbot, after Skip Talbot who did a lot of tinkering with 50BMGs. I think he's still active in the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association.
    Barrel erosion was extremely bad in this cartridge.
    338/50 Talbot
     
  5. Wyobuckaroo

    Wyobuckaroo Member

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    Howdy
    How about a .375 on a .338 Win mag case. (3.25 max over all length (98 mauser))
    Wyo
     
  6. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    I have a thing for the 6.5mm bullets, so I'd like to see an assault rifle round with it. I was thinking a 7.62 x 39 case necked down to a 6.5mm, maybe a 120gr bullet at whatever velocity you could manage.

    It would have fer better penetration than a 7.62 x 39 and 5.56mm, with a pretty flat tragectory, and it would retain it's energy much better at longer ranges.
     
  7. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    the 6.5x39 is actually pretty popular.

    Shot a couple Contenders and MOA Maximum silhouette pistols chambered in 6.5x39. Very effective little round for the case capacity.


    I'd like to see a .40 caliber based on the .30-06. ;)
     
  8. trapshooter

    trapshooter Member

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    Frohickey

    The 338/50 is a .34 cal round, not mid .40 caliber. I know about the 338/50 and the problems with it, thats why I'd go a bit bigger in the bullet diameter.

    But that's the kind of stuff that has to be done, just to keep us all interested.;)
     
  9. cheygriz

    cheygriz Member

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    I would like to see Marlin chamber their 1895 for two new cartridges.

    1. A .45-70 necked down to .375. This would be head and shoulders above the .375 Winchester, and would make the Marlin lever rifle into a true 200 yard elk gun.

    2. A .45-70 necked down to .30 caliber. .30-06 level performance (or better) in a handy lever action.
     
  10. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    Gewehr98,

    Would you have any ballistic data (external or terminal) on that round? I would be most obliged.

    Hmmm, I wonder if we threw a new barrel on an AK would that round work?
     
  11. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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    Factory loaded rounds in : 17ackley hornet, .7.5X55 swiss, 9mm largo, 8x56S mannlicher,.358 Norma, 375 weatherby, and .404 (for your mid .40 round):cool:
     
  12. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

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    Nothing.

    I think that anything already developed is about as good as it gets & if not, who'd really care? Really. The diff between a .308 & a .30-378 is a bunch, but realistic? no so much.

    Problem I see happening is the "new stuff" that we'll never get our hands on - all that new techno-stuff = wave radios 'n such. It'll matter down the road & really does suck that we'll have to use "mere" kinetic weapons against the "wave radios" in our next fight for freedoms.

    hf well.

    Back to basics. (sigh)
     
  13. Sylvilagus Aquaticus

    Sylvilagus Aquaticus Member

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    I know there's plenty of stuff that does it as well, but I'd love to see more 6.5 caliber cartriges legitimized, like the 6.5-06. Even if Winchester would produce the M70 in greater numbers in 6.5x55 I'd be thrilled, but then again, we've got .243's out the wazoo with 8% less case capacity than 6.5x55 and .308 with essentially the same weights. Kinda makes me feel 'bracketed'.

    Regards,
    Rabbit.
     
  14. Subby

    Subby Member

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    HSmith,

    .338 win mag-ish performance out of a Featherweight has my fingers and toes tingling with excitement. Plain ol' .338 WM has plenty o'power, but everyone makes the rifles too heavy/stylish for hunting, as opposed to shooting.

    Sub
     
  15. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    7x39 AK
     
  16. Zorro

    Zorro Member

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    .50 ACP.

    .35 Winchester Long Magnum Based on the .300 Winchester Magnum Case.
     
  17. trapshooter

    trapshooter Member

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    Frohickey's comments

    about the mid-.40 round based on the .50BMG have hit the 'on' switch in me.

    Theoretically speaking, if you were considering at least some of the variables regarding a round of this type, where would you start.

    Frohickey mentioned the .338 based on the .50BMG and throat erosion (a real problem). This is due to the velocity increase of expanding gasses through a much smaller hole. The neck acts as a venturi (rocket nozzle?). Burns and erodes the throat of the barrel, at the very least, in that cartridge. (An example off too much velocity, powder, or something).

    Question. Given a known case maximum diameter (the .50 BMG, in this example), is there a 'better' neck size (interior dim), than the one used, that yields higher velocity without excessive throat erosion?

    Second question. If the answer to the first question is 'yes', then is there an optimal shoulder angle for such a case that a) does not restrict gas flow too much, b) allows 'maximum' powder capacity. etc., etc.

    Comment: I think this was one of the reasons that Roy Weatherby used his fairly unique neck design. In addition to avoiding the sharp transition into the neck at the interior of the shoulder than more 'conventional' sharp shoulders do, the longer transition allowed more powder in the case (in addition to the increased length required for the transition to a given bullet O.D.).

    I'm not suggesting that this solution is the one to use here. Mainly because I am discussing an existing case, and it would be difficult (if not impossible) to go with Weatherby's solution for your average reloader.

    Moving on. How does one come up with 'possible', reasonable answers to the first two questions?

    Can you analyze the body of existing case design to find an 'ideal' ratio of neck size (I.D. = caliber) to case O.D., disregarding the actual dimensions of either.

    If so, does this lead to a similar analysis of required or optimal shoulder angles?

    I would think that we have good boundary conditions already. The existing .50BMG on the one hand, and an unsatisfactory limit on the other (the .338 dimension). Is there an accurate velocity/energy/trajectory solution between these two bounds?

    I realize that this may be (and probably is) re-inventing the wheel. But heck, thats what this is all about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2002
  18. trapshooter

    trapshooter Member

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    The issues in my last post raise some other questions. In the example I'm using, i.e., necking down the .50 BMG, is there a barrel length that:

    a) allows for efficient burning of the charge, resulting in max velocity

    and

    b) does not lead or contribute to erosion

    and

    c) results in as short as possible a time between max pressure, max velocity, and a return to ambient pressure in the bore?

    This has to do with free recoil, in the end, although I'm sure one would desire a muzzle brake anyway. I know I would. But there is a time lag between ignition of the charge (firing), and the bullets exit from a barrel of given length. How much time (barrel length) do you allow for gas expansion. Heck, I haven't even gotten to twist issues yet. Still on interior ballistics issues.

    Also, I'm not looking at a crew-served weapon. One person needs to be able to use the thing, after all.:cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2002
  19. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

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    Have you looked into the .408 CheyTac? It's fairly new and tests have shown it to out shoot the .50BMG as far as accuracy goes and it will stay supersonic longer.

    It's not cheap either, expect to pay at least $5 a round. The reloading stuff is out there but you'll have to do alot of experimenting on your own.

    Rifles aren't cheap either, EDM Arms makes the .408 in their take down version that runs about 5K. I would assume that a custom bolt gun in .408 would probably set you back at least 3K. If you have the time and money, I'm sure you might be able to find someone to wildcat the .50BMG to .408.

    Check out these links,
    www.cheyennetactical.com
    www.edmarms.com
    www.lostriverballistic.com
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The .50 BMG is so big it necks up better than down. There was some work done with a round called the 16mm Vega once upon a time. Guess that would be a Destructive Device for us commoners, though.
     
  21. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    People have been saying this for a long time, but I'm of the opinion that everything that needs to be out there is already out there.

    We hit "windowdressing" phase sometime early after WW II, or perhaps even before.
     
  22. Elkslayer

    Elkslayer Member

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    I'd sure play around with a...


    338-08 :D
     
  23. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    From the standpoint of "need" in hunting cartridges, I agree with Mike. The Weatherby stuff, e.g., is "want". Nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as one keeps need separate from want.

    Bullet and powder development is another story entirely.

    I'd say the biggest "deal" in modern cartridges comes from the search for maximum accuracy in the world of Bench Rest competition. The other area of gun/cartridge development is in the realm of long-range target competition. Natcherly, this latter translates into the world of long-range varmint shooting...

    The thoughts about "new" cartridges remind me of a lot of the custom car stuff, whether for show or for go. "I'm doin' it this way because I wanna and because I can."

    :), Art
     
  24. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Most of the calibers listed are available as wildcats, or something pretty close. And if yours isn't, all it takes is money, and not much of that, IF you are buying a custom rifle to begin with. A chamber reamer ground to your specs is not expensive compared with the barrel and action. And it will have your name on it.
     
  25. WilderBill

    WilderBill Member

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    It's hard to come up with anything that hasn't been done already (or something really close). That doesn't stop us from enjoying the idea that maybe we can come up with the perfect wildcat.

    I like the .50 APC idea. Should work out in a 1911.

    How 'bout a .40 x 39? It's not a long range cartridge to begin with, so why not add mass & area for more stopping power at relitively short range?
     
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