New gun not as gift

[Lupinus]

I don't shot much anyway cause I havn't got a good reliable handgun yet. I should be coming into a few grand in a few week or months though soon as some stuff sells and depending how much I walk away from it with Im buying a gun....well technicly mom is buying a gun

 

[hksw]

I filled out the paperwork and everything was ok. As the salesman was boxing up the gun, I mentioned to him that I was buying the gun for my daughter for Christmas. He asked me how old she was and i told him she was 26. He picked up the gun off the counter and backed away from it and then told me that he couldn't sell me the gun. I replied with huh? and he told me that since I was buying the gun for her and she was over 18, that her name and info had to be on the paperwork instead of mine.

Eh, if Sarah Brady can do the same thing for her son, why can't you?

http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/second/brady_skirted_gun_laws.html

 

[MachIVshooter]

I mentioned to him that I was buying the gun for my daughter for Christmas. He asked me how old she was and i told him she was 26. He picked up the gun off the counter and backed away from it and then told me that he couldn't sell me the gun. I replied with huh? and he told me that since I was buying the gun for her and she was over 18, that her name and info had to be on the paperwork instead of mine. he told me that I could pay for it, but she would have to pick the gun up at the store. He also said that the batf didn't allow gun purchases to be surprises such as Christmas gifts.

He was flat-out LYING! Federal law allows you to purchase a firearm, including handguns, as a gift for anyone over 18 who is legal to possess a firearm. Gifts are not straw purchases. If he does not know this, he should not be working at the gun counter.

 

[SIOP]

Like G. Gordon Liddy once said, "As a convicted felon, I'm prohibited from owning a handgun. My wife, however, owns 47."

All kidding aside, as others have noted your gunstore guy doesn't know his stuff. In your case what you were doing was perfectly legal.

 

[poe_9999]

The first yes/no question (12a I think) on the federal form (4473 forum) asks if you are the "actual buyer" of the firearm.

Now if you flip the form over and read the instructions for question 12a, it specifically states to answer yes to this question if you are purchasing the firearm to give as a gift. The background check is always done on the "actual buyer" and not random people....

When a dealer says you cannot purchase a firearm as a gift, or you have to get the recipient to fill out the 4473 form, just point out the instructions on the back of the forum.

 

[DrDeFab]

Here's the link to the form: http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

See "Important Notice" 1.

 

[Zundfolge]

I'm begining to think this should be posted in our FAQ.

Here's the ATF's litte cartoon that explains what a straw purchase is, and is not.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

 

[junyo]

The BATF part was total BS, but I've run into the same issue as store policy. Once you've informed the clerk that the weapon will be a gift they won't sell it unless the final recipient comes in to do the paperwork. And realistically, if I were a store owner, I would see it as a potential liability issue to sell a gun that I knew was going to change hands without doing the background check on the eventual actual owner myself. Final owner turns out to be a known mental defective, shoots up a school with the gun I sold, and the clerk remembers the purchase on Action News at 11. I'd get sued blind. Not fair, but I understand why such a policy exists.

 

[Cacique500]

My dad came to visit last year and we made our usual pilgrimage up to the gun store. He found a .17 HMR that he just had to have so we started the paperwork. Everything was going fine until the clerk saw him put down TN as his state.

Dad lives in TN, and I'm in VA. Long gun sales are legal (i.e. Dad was legal to purchase the firearm here and take it back to TN). The clerk however didn't think that was the case. We argued for about 15 minutes and finally I told him to call the ATF. We got ATF on the phone who told us to contact the TN State police...who told us to contact the ATF. This went round and round for about 45 minutes and I finally lost my temper a little bit.

I told the guy look, if you don't know the laws and you work in a gun store then I'll just buy the rifle. He grabbed the rifle off the counter and took a couple steps back and told me "No, I won't sell you the rifle...you'll just give it to you dad...that's a straw purchase!" Then I go into how my purchasing a firearm for my dad and giving it to him as gift is not a straw purchase...so we argue some more.

Long story short, at this point I threw a hissy fit (we had be doing this crap for over 2 hours and the clerk was getting $hitty with me). Got the manager and gave him an earful. The manager (also not familiar with the law) finally got the TN state police on the phone (must've been a different person this time) who said yes, it was legal for a TN resident to purchase a long arm in VA. I have no idea why the ATF person we spoke to couldn't quote the regs.

Dad filled out the paperwork, did the background check (and was approved immediately) and that was that. The clerk became very apologetic - but dammit, if you work in a gun store you have to know the laws!!!!

 

[JohnBT]

HA! You have more patience than I. Much more. I would have been down at the corner bar after the first phone call.

Then there was the day my father decided to buy a handgun and when the sales guy put the forms on the counter my dad slid them down in front of me and told me to fill them out. "But, but, but...dad, you can't do that." Then he pulled out a checkbook and said, "It's legal if your name is on the account too." Sneaky old coot, huh? Made me do all the little squinting and scribbling. The sales guy knew us and didn't even blink.

(And I had better start reading the financial forms my dad has me sign. How many joint accounts does he have? It's not a secret, I just haven't paid close attention. One day I asked him something or other about their solid cherry dining room furniture and he went to the filing cabinet and pulled out the maker's catalog from 1964 and the freaking receipt.)

I've purchased new guns for gifts and I always tell the seller what I'm doing just to see if they know what they're doing. Some of them need educating.

JT

 

[Zundfolge]

...but dammit, if you work in a gun store you have to know the laws!!!!

I understand what you mean, but if you make a minor paperwork snafu at work, you generally don't end up in prison, come out as a felon and aren't able to even own guns let alone sell them.

The BATFE has created a byzantine bureaucracy built on capricious and random punishment of FFL holders ... punishment that includes jail, felony convictions, burning your family alive etc (not to mention prohibiting one from making a living)


So I can understand why a gun dealer might be overly cautious.

I have no idea why the ATF person we spoke to couldn't quote the regs.

Couldn't or wouldn't?

There's a lot of folk who go to work for the ATF because they hate us "gun nuts" and want to do everything they can to make our lives miserable until they can finally overturn the 2nd Amendment and force us to turn them all in (murdering and burning out a few of us in the process).

 

[Cacique500]

JohnBT - the store in question was "GT" up near Virginia Center Commons...you should know it!

Zundfolge - This guy was not being overly cautious - he didn't KNOW. When Dad pulled out his TN drivers license they guy said "Oh no, we can't sell a gun to you...you're from out of state." He just didn't know what he was talking about.

As to the ATF not answering I have no idea but it did strike me as a little odd they the Federal ATF would want us to call the TN State police for clarification.

 

[Zundfolge]

Zundfolge - This guy was not being overly cautious - he didn't KNOW. When Dad pulled out his TN drivers license they guy said "Oh no, we can't sell a gun to you...you're from out of state." He just didn't know what he was talking about.

Well you have a point about that part ... I was referring more to his fear of a "straw purchase".