New Here, getting into reloading

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Nyet

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Hey guys, first post here on THR and I've got a question. I'm shooting an AR-15 that I built myself, and its a flawless shooter (not bragging, just facts). Every malfunction has been linked to something other than the gun; I.E. me, faulty mag, or Caldwell brass catcher.
anyway, my wife said I could buy a tumbling set up for reloading come the start of the new year as a start to my own reloading equipment. The press, scales, and such should follow soon after and I got a tone of brass saved up, so I wanted to start thinking about loads. I want to build up 2 loads, 1 that is pretty well NATO spec, 62 grain green tips, and I've been able to find the loads to do this. but with the other load I wanted to go a little more extreme.

I want to use a 90 grain HPBT and get it up to 3800-4000 FPS. Is this even possible or is it just a pipe dream? Would this loading be anymore unsafe than a normal loading?

Anyway, I know very little about reloading, so please set me straight.
 
Step one, buy a few reloading manuals and read them. You arent going to get 4000 fps out of a 90 gr bullet in 223. You may blow up your gun. You should find an experienced reloader and learn from him. When dealing with 60,000 psi, you had better know what you are doing.

Ken
 
Definitely get at least one reloading manual, I'd advise two. Watch a lot of video's on youtube with someone reloading an AR15. Checkout the various load pages for the gunpowder manufacturers. What caliber AR15 do you have? With a 62 or 90 grain bullet I'm going to guess a .223 Remington. You'll get in the lower 2000fps range with the 90 grain bullet, with the 62grain bullet you'll get 2700-3200fps roughly
 
Get a manual or two and spend some time studying them. You will not get the velocity you stated from a 223 with 90gr bullets, in fact, I doubt that it is obtainable with a 40gr bullet. "Unsafe" is not the word for it!!
Lafitte
 
but with the other load I wanted to go a little more extreme.

I want to use a 90 grain HPBT and get it up to 3800-4000 FPS. Is this even possible or is it just a pipe dream?
Pipe dream.

Check out a manual or two, and look at the data on the powder maker sites, and you will see what we mean.

Be safe, and welcome to THR.
 
@Seabeeken; 10-4. can you recommend a good manual?
@Gonoles; both ARs are chambered in 5.56, one with a 1:7 twist, and one with a 1:8 twist
@Laffite and Walkalong; 10-4!
 
Pipe dream.

Buy a couple good instructional reloading books, not so much for the data, data is easily obtainable from powder and bullet manufactures online. Two books that I would recommend is Speer, which I learned most of my reloading from before the internet was available, and the Lyman 49th.

Read them cover to cover, multiple times, then start the process of buying your tools of the trade.

A realistic velocity with 90 gr. projectiles from a .223 is going to be 2400-ish fps.. This is where data and reloading books will help you, other wise your just reaching for pie in the sky, and a trip to the ER to have metal fragments removed from your body. I understand your enthusiasm, but a .223 can only do so much, 4000 fps is not in the cards. A 22-250 with light weight projectiles of 35 grains to maybe 45 grains can get into the 4000 fps range, but not with anything heavier.

GS
 
Where did you get the 90gr idea? I didn't even know they made them for a 223. As has already been said, READ, buy some 55-60gr FMJ, learn with those. It will be a bit of a steep learning curve starting with 223, especially the brass prep. Do you know anyone who is already reloading these? Spend some time with them.
 
Nyet, IMO you have your priorities sideways. First, learn. If you don't have anyone to mentor you, start reading here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=649184

Then, when you are ready to begin trying your hand at your knew knowledge, you can begin buying gear.
Note; If you have a press and other loading tools, you can load ammunition without tumbling. OTH, if you have a tumbler but no press or other loading tools, you can't load doodley squat! A tumbler is a nice (some say vital) option, but it is not a requirement. A press (and other basic tools) is required!
 
Welcome to the forum, where the guys here will take you from newb to nerd quicker than you can spell K-A-B-O-O-M!

My advice, and Im pretty new myself:
Get manuals and read, read, read..not one, not two, but multiple manuals. Put a few in the bathroom if you roll like that, and read them over and over until you know what's coming on the next page before you flip to it.

And hang around here for a month or 6 before you even think about purchasing something. Ask questions and involve yourself even if you feel out of place, and even if you don't know what exactly we're talking about.. Worked for me. Hell, Im still out of place in most of the conversations but everything is going boom when it's supposed to so I guess Im doing ok:)
 
Here's a youtube video with a guy loading a 556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW_bfX6eFsQ
Probably look at several dozen video's.

BTW: Check Midway, they were having a sale on the 14th edition of the Speer Reloading manual. Lot's of good sections to read.

Warning: You will get addicted, you don't save money, you just end up shooting more ;).
 
The only cartridge I'M aware of that MIGHT be capable of 90 grains @ 3800 f/s is a wildcat called the .22 EargeSplittenLoudenBoomer. It was an invention of P.O. Ackley, if memory serves, derived from a .264 Winchester Magnum case.

MY experience with reloading .223/5.56x45mm involves bullets in the 52 -63 grain range, so I'm no help on heavier projectiles. But IT SEEMS that people who really know about that stuff tend to opt for the heaviest projectile that their particular firearm will launch at 2700 - 2800 f/s. I could be wrong.
 
Spend your "tumbler money" on manuals instead. You'll eventually get a tumbler, but it's not required to get started. As you probably already understand, reloading can be very dangerous if done improperly.

I'm pretty new to reloading as well. Been doing it for about 2 years. I've made stupid mistakes that could have gotten me seriously injured if I hadn't known what was happening.

First big mistake: Assuming a max published load was safe AND not having ingrained all the indicators of overpressure into my noggin.

Second big mistake: Failed to charge a 45acp round with powder, which caused a squib. Luckily, I recognized what had happened and was able to clear the lodged bullet with a dowel.

Either one of these mistakes could have left me maimed or worse.

Mistakes like this are embarrassing and alarming, and probably more common for new reloaders than we like to admit. Do everything you can to be knowledgeable and have good quality control practices in order to be safe.
 
The guys are right, you are fantasizing and need more literature, not more gadgets.

Just so everybody is on the same page, I have actually shot 90 gr .223s.
My working load got me up to 2700 fps with a Berger VLD and nearly that fast with a JLK VLD. A 90 grain Sierra would not tolerate more than about 2550 fps.
That out of a 28 inch 6.5 twist barrel as recommended by Sierra. Berger says a 7 twist is enough, but JLK also recommended a 6.5 (They don't make 90 gr .224s any more, it is a very small niche product.)
Note that OAL is as long as the chamber will take, much more than magazine length.

If you want a 90 gr bullet at 3800 fps, you are talking about a .257 Weatherby or equivalent.
 
Data does exist for 90 gr. bullets on Hodgdon loading pages, but velocities are no where near 4000 fps., more like 2400 fps., and I would bet that is pushing things. Not a particularly good bullet weight for this cartridge, probably wouldn't stabilize without a faster twist barrel.

GS
 
First step is to join the NRA.

Second step is to start reading. You local library may have the books you need for free.

The best source for reliable videos is on UltimateReloader.Com. YouTube has too many videos of idiots trying to blow themselves up. When a video starts with the words "Watch how fast I can reload..." then take a hint and turn it off.
 
Save the money that you would spend on a tumbler and buy books, cheap press, or dies. You can clean brass well enough with lemi shine and hot water. The tumbler just makes the brass look good. You may find out that you don't care for the hobby so keep it simple starting out.
 
I'm no expert on reloading 223, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

I read a mag article sometime back regarding twist rates and 223. The author used two bolt action rifles that were identical except for twist rate. One thing that stuck out in my mind was that the heavier (longer) bullets would not fit in the mag, I'm willing to bet that a 90gn won't fit in an AR mag.

The other thing is that any jacketed bullet leaving a 1:7 twist barrel at 4000 fps I am willing to bet is going to shed the jacket. Calculate the rpm of the bullet, think about centrifugal force, and it is easy to see why.

As others have said, 4000fps is a pipe dream.
 
Add a big +1 to getting manuals, and I'd add a good text; The ABCs of Reloading. I'm sure this will answer a bunch of questions as you run into them. I think a tumbler is an OK thing to have but certainly not necessary to start reloading. For 12 years I reloaded without using a tumbler (that was pre-web and didn't know I needed one). I inspect every case before I reload it and merely wiped each case with a mineral spirits dampened rag to remove any grit, gunk, or dirt. No, I didn't wear out any dies, and yep, I could spot any defects in the brass. If you wanna start with a tumbler, cool, but I would research/buy a press first, then dies, powder measure, etc., ad infinatum...
 
Get the manuals You should get one with your chosen reloading kit . I like my Hornaday manual Speer is my second and VihtaVuori my seldom used . Going this alone for most people is a miss and miss then a hit kind of thing . I started with the 38 special and kept going . Good luck and pay attention to some of the guys here that already do what you want to do . I do Pistols and two Rifles so far . A friend near me has loaded for competition long range shooting . I may have to camp out in his reloading room for a while .
 
Welcome to reloading. Thanks for asking our advice.

Tumbler is the last thing I would buy. Not because there is anything wrong with using a tumbler, but because it is the least necessary of gear. Your brass will be shinier than if you just wipe them down before loading, but they won't shoot any better, just be prettier.

1 Manuals. Because loading without good information is asking for trouble. Manuals in their early chapters have good "how-to" and "why" information and from different authors give you different voices and points of view, some of which may "speak" to you better than others or have different areas of emphasis. The age of the manuals does not matter, so your local library or used book store will be good sources.

1.b Manuals Because loading without good information is asking for trouble. Load recipes for CURRENT powders and bullets is essential.

1.c Powder makers' and bullet makers' web sites are also good sources of load recipes. But there have been typos on the sites (rare), so double check. Small differences fro different labs using different firearms on different days with different primers are to be expected.

2 Press, because fingers are not strong enough to form metal

3 Dies because fingers are not accurate enough to form metal

4 Powder scale because eyeballs or dippers or powder measures are not accurate enough to reliably mete powder.

Almost everything else can be substituted for, deferred, or done without until you have determined what you need. Examples:

Case lube pad. Use a sponge, paper towel, fingers in the meantime. Or a spray lube.

Bullet puller. I worked without one for a couple years and never had occasion to disassemble a cartridge, even for a few years after I got one. If you do load a round you should not shoot, just set it (them) aside (well labelled) until you do get a bullet puller.

Case trimmer. After a couple loadings, bottlenecked cartridges have to be trimmed for length. But you don't usually need to trim until after a few loadings, so a trimmer can wait a little while. Not too long, though.

Micrometer VERY useful for determining when your cases need trimming, for finding out-of-spec components, etc. Should be high up on the list of accessories

Powder trickler. If you weigh each charge, a trickler will allow you to drop granules of powder very slowly to reach the precise weight you want. Substitute: a rife case twirled between your finger.

and so forth.

A kit will get you most of what you need (but not usually all you need) and give you a few things you don't need or will want to upgrade later. Assembling your own kit will give you the additional benefit of THINKING about your needs and the loading process. Knowing the LOADING PROCESS in all its details will keep you safer. (KEEP YOU SAFER).

Good luck. Be safe. Always, all ways.

Lost Sheep
 
10 Advices for the Novice Loader

10 Advices for the novice loader

I have thought of a few things I think are useful for handloaders to know or to consider which seem to be almost universally mentioned, so I put together this list of 10 advices.


Much is a matter of personal taste and circumstance, though. So, all advice carries this caveat, "your mileage may vary".


So you can better evaluate my words, here is the focus of my experience. I load for handguns (44 Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 9mm, 357 Mag, 480 Ruger) a couple hundred per sitting and go through 100 to 500 centerfire rounds per month. I don't cast....yet.


When I bought my first gun (.357 Magnum Dan Wesson revolver), I bought, at the same time, a reloading setup because I knew I could not afford to shoot if I did not reload my own ammo. My setup was simple. A set of dies, a press, a 2" x 6" plank, some carriage bolts and wing nuts, a scale, two loading blocks. I just mounted the press on the plank wedged into the drawer of an end table. I did not use a loading bench at all.


It cost me about 1/4 of factory ammo per round and paid for itself pretty quickly.


I still believe in a minimalist approach and and try to keep my inventory of tools low. I do not keep my loading gear set up when not in use, either, but pack them away in small toolboxes until the next loading session.


Now, here are my Ten Advices.


Advice #1 Use Reliable Reference Sources Wisely - Books, Videos, Web Sites, etc.


Study up in loading manuals until you understand the process well, before spending a lot of (or any) money on equipment.


Read as many manuals as you can, for the discussion of the how-to steps found in their early chapters. The reason you want more than one or two manuals is that you want to read differing authors/editors writing styles and find ones that "speak" to you. What one manual covers thinly, another will cover well so give better coverage of the subject; one author or editor may cover parts of the subject more thoroughly than the others. The public library should have manuals you can read, then decide which ones you want to buy. Dated, perhaps but the basics are pretty unchanging.


I found "The ABC's of Reloading" to be a very good reference. Containing no loading data but full of knowledge and understanding of the process. I am told the older editions are better than the newer ones, so the library is looking even better.


There are instructional videos now that did not exist in the '70s when I started, but some are better than others. Filter all casual information through a "B.S." filter.


Only after you know the processing steps of loading can you look at the contents of of a dealer's shelves, a mail-order catalog or a reloading kit and know what equipment you want to buy. If you are considering a loading kit, you will be in a better position to know what parts you don't need and what parts the kits lack. If building your own kit from scratch, you will be better able to find the parts that will serve your into the future without having to do trade-ins.


Advice #2 All equipment is good. But is it good FOR YOU?


Almost every manufacturer of loading equipment makes good stuff; if they didn't, they would lose reputation fast and disappear from the marketplace. Generally you get what you pay for and better equipment costs more. Cast aluminum is lighter and less expensive but not so abrasion resistant as cast iron. Cast iron lasts practically forever. Aluminum generally takes more cleaning and lubrication to last forever. Just think about what you buy. Ask around. Testimonials are nice. But if you think Ford/Chevy owners have brand loyalty, you have not met handloaders. Testimonials with reasoning behind them are better. RCBS equipment is almost all green, Dillon-blue, Lee-red. Almost no manufacturers cross color lines and many handloaders simply identify themselves as "Blue" or whatever. Make your own choices.


About brand loyalties, an example: Lee Precision makes good equipment, but is generally considered the "economy" equipment maker (though some of their stuff is considered preferable to more expensive makes, as Lee has been an innovator both in price leadership which has introduced many to loading who might not otherwise have been able to start the hobby and in introduction of innovative features like their auto-advancing turret presses). But there are detractors who focus on Lee's cheapest offerings to paint even their extremely strong gear as inferior. My advice: Ignore the snobs.


On Kits: Almost every manufacturer makes a kit that contains everything you need to do reloading (except dies and the consumables). A kit is decent way to get started. Eventually most people wind up replacing most of the components of the kit as their personal taste develops (negating the savings you thought the kit gave you), but you will have gotten started, at least.


On building your own kit: The thought processes you give to assembling your own kit increases your knowledge about reloading. You may get started a couple weeks later than if you started with a kit, but you will be far ahead in knowledge.


Advice #3 While Learning, don't get fancy. Progressive, turret or Single Stage? Experimental loads? Pushing performance envelopes? Don't get fancy.


While you are learning, load mid-range at first so overpressures are not concerns. Just concentrate on getting the mechanical steps of loading right and being VERY VERY consistent (charge weight, crimp strength, bullet seating depth, primer seating force, all that). Use a voluminous, "fluffy", powder that is, one that is easy to see that you have charged the case and which will overflow your cartridge case if you mistakenly put two powder charges in it.


While learning, only perform one operation at a time. Whether you do the one operation 50 (or 20) times on a batch of cases before moving on to the next operation - "Batch Processing" or take one case through all the sequence of operations between empty case to finished cartridge - "Continuous Processing", sometimes known as "Sequential Processing", learn by performing only one operation at a time and concentrating on THAT OPERATION. On a single stage press or a turret press, this is the native way of operation. On a progressive press, the native operation is to perform multiple operations simultaneously. Don't do it. While you can learn on a progressive press, in my opinion too many things happen at the same time, thus are hard to keep track of (unless you load singly at first). Mistakes DO happen and you want to watch for them ONE AT A TIME. Until handloading becomes second nature to you.


Note: A turret press is essentially a single stage press with a moveable head which can mount several dies at the same time. What makes it like a single stage rather than a progressive is that you are still using only one die at a time, not three or four dies simultaneously at each stroke.


On the Turret vs Single stage the decision is simpler. You can do everything on a Turret EXACTLY the same way as you do on a single stage (just leave the turret stationary). That is, a Turret IS a single stage if you don't rotate the head.


Learning on a progressive can be done successfully, but it is easier to learn to walk in shoes than on roller skates.


Also, a good, strong, single stage press is in the stable of almost every reloader I know, no matter how many progressives they have. They always keep at least one.


Advice #4 Find a mentor.


There is no substitute for someone watching you load a few cartridges and critiquing your technique BEFORE you develop bad habits or make a dangerous mistake. (A mistake that might not have consequences right away, but maybe only after you have escaped trouble a hundred times until one day you get bit, for instance having case lube on your fingers when you handle primers; 99 times, no problem because primers are coated with a sealant, but the hundredth primer may not be perfectly sealed and now winds up "dead")


I started loading with the guy who sold me my press watching over my shoulder as I loaded my first 6 rounds to make sure I did not blow myself up, load a powderless cartridge or set off a primer in the press. I could have learned more, faster with a longer mentoring period, but I learned a lot in those first 6 rounds, as he explained each step. I educated myself after that. But now, on the internet, I have learned a WHOLE LOT MORE. But in-person is still the best.


After you have been mentored, mentor someone else. Not necessarily in loading or the shooting sports, but in SOMETHING in which you are enthusiastic and qualified. Just give back to the community.


Advice #5 Design your loading space for safety, efficiency, easse, cleanliness


Your loading bench/room is tantamount to a factory floor. There is a whole profession devoted to industrial engineering, the art and science of production design. Your loading system (layout, process steps, quality control, safety measures, etc) deserves no less attention than that.

For example, consider the word "workflow". Place your components' supplies convenient to the hand that will place them into the operation and the receptacle(s) for interim or finished products, too. You can make a significant increase in safety and in speed, too, with well thought out design of your production layout, "A" to "Z", from the lighting to the dropcloth to the fire suppression scheme.

One factor often neglected is where the scale is located. Place your scale where it is protected from drafts and vibration and is easy to read and operate, eye level, in good light, etc.


Advice #6 Keep Current on loading technology


Always use a CURRENT loading manual. Ballistic testing has produced some new knowledge over the years and powder chemistry has changed over the years, too. They make some powders differently than they used to and even some powder names may have changed. However, if you are using 10 year old powder, you may want to check a 10 year old manual for the recipe. Then double check with a modern manual and then triple check with the powder maker.


Read previous threads on reloading and watch videos available on the web. But be cautious. There is both good information and bad information found in casual sources, so see my advice #10.


Advice #7 You never regret buying the best (but once)


When you buy the very best, it hurts only once, in the wallet. When you buy too cheaply it hurts every time you use the gear. The trick is to buy good enough (on the scale between high quality and low price) to keep you happy without overpaying for features you don't need. "The delicious flavor of low price fades fast. The wretched aftertaste of poor quality lingers long."


Advice #8 Tungsten Carbide dies (or Titanium Nitride) rather than tool steel.

T-C dies instead of regular tool steel (which require lubrication for sizing your brass) for your straight-walled cartridge cases. T-C dies do not require lubrication, which will save you time. Carbide expander button for your bottlenecked cases. Keeps lube out of the inside of the cases.


Advice #9 Safety Always Safety All Ways.


Wear eye protection, especially when seating primers. Gloves are good, too, especially if using the Lee "Hammer" Tools. Children (unless they are good helpers, not just playing around) are at risk and are a risk. Pets, too unless they have been vetted (no, not that kind of vetting). Any distractions that might induce you to forget charging a case (no charge or a double charge, equally disturbing). Imagine everything that CAN go wrong. Then imagine everything that you CAN'T imagine. I could go on, but it's your eyes, your fingers, your house, your children (present of future - lead is a hazard, too. Wash after loading and don't eat at your bench). Enough said?


Advice #10 Take all with a grain of salt.

Verify for yourself everything you learn. Believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for everything you find on the internet (with the possible exception of the actual web sites of the bullet and powder manufacturers). This advice applies to my message as much as anything else and especially to personal load recipes. Hare-brained reloaders might have dangerous habits and even an honest typographical error could be deadly. I heard about a powder manufacturer's web site that dropped a decimal point once. It was fixed REAL FAST, but mistakes happen. I work in accounting and can easily hit "7" instead of "4" because they are next to each other on the keypad.


Good luck.


Lost Sheep
 
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