C96
Member
NOLA PD does not carry tazers. Not an option for them.
New Orleans Police shoot, kill man
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rosco_the_dog
Member
I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy.
If you watch the video you see a few things not mentioned in the article: there were about 10 police officers w/ 7 of them having cover behind a car, all having pistols drawn and aimed, and the man while holding a knife is not in a threatening posture and even tried to walk away but another officer cut him off.
tonytulipz
member
NO
I agree, and would have wished it to be that way. When Police draw their guns they never do so in the intent to wound though. It is a practice that goes with the job. When they draw their guns they mean business. This person did not understand that and thats why its sad.
They had no Tazer obviously. I have been to NO. It use to be a neat place, more like an American Amsterdam but with rules that try to be enforced.
I doubt this town will ever be the same. The people that left from Katrina will prolly stay in Texas or OK or Miss. There is nothing left of that area but damage.
The police their have got to be on edge just from all that has happend, throw in stuff like this and there is ZERO TOLERANCE.
rosco_the_dog said:
I agree, and would have wished it to be that way. When Police draw their guns they never do so in the intent to wound though. It is a practice that goes with the job. When they draw their guns they mean business. This person did not understand that and thats why its sad.
They had no Tazer obviously. I have been to NO. It use to be a neat place, more like an American Amsterdam but with rules that try to be enforced.
I doubt this town will ever be the same. The people that left from Katrina will prolly stay in Texas or OK or Miss. There is nothing left of that area but damage.
The police their have got to be on edge just from all that has happend, throw in stuff like this and there is ZERO TOLERANCE.
tonytulipz
member
Janitor said:
Exactly, if I shoot someone, when the Police come I better have wet running down my leg and have been scared for my life.
NineseveN
member
So far sounds like a necessary shoot.
rosco_the_dog
Member
They showed him backing up while the police with guns pointed, moving forward. The news channel stopped the video before he reportedly lunged at them.
There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him.
I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot.
There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him.
I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot.
tonytulipz
member
hard job
It may seem like that, but its the last thing ANY MAN should wanna do is take anothers life. Cops and GI's that do kill, have the highest Alcohol, divorce rate, quiting job, and suicide rate in this country.
rosco_the_dog said:
It may seem like that, but its the last thing ANY MAN should wanna do is take anothers life. Cops and GI's that do kill, have the highest Alcohol, divorce rate, quiting job, and suicide rate in this country.
Jbar4Ranch
Member
Um, no. I could certainly hit hit a leg at 10-15 feet, repeatedly, and wouldn't even need to sight. When the police draw and say HIT THE GROUND, you damn well better do it, but a more or less stationary target at only three or four paces? Apparently, policy says shoot to kill, and common sense is removed from the formula.Steve in PA said:
saspic
Member
Cool, then you could twirl the gun on your finger and blow the smoke away from the muzzle.
Jbar4Ranch
Member
Um... well, yes, I'm also certainly capable of that too... but what would be the point of it?
The shooting was justified, but the killing wasn't necessary. Once again, let me say, when the police draw and say HIT THE GROUND, you damn well better do it.
The shooting was justified, but the killing wasn't necessary. Once again, let me say, when the police draw and say HIT THE GROUND, you damn well better do it.
So, common sense says it's a good idea to take potshots at the moving legs of a guy lunging with a knife towards officers who have given him plenty of warning?
Umm, no.
Lemme guess. You were accused of being a troll?
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Jbar4Ranch
Member
No, I was one of the very first members. I had a bad experience with an ex wife who liked to cyber stalk me, and Eric thought it best to ban both parties rather than take sides.
Are you two serious or just being facetious?
Are you two serious or just being facetious?
Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder.
stevelyn
Member
How so? And why do you think they call it deadly force? Perhaps because being shot puts one at high risk of dying?
Them's some pretty powerful words
spoken to a rather skeptical audience, especially coming from someone who hasn't cited their credentials as to how they can pull off such fantastic feat during an adrenalin dump over those us who've either had training or are trainers ourselves, and who make no such similar claims ourselves.......all without using sights. 
From the info given in the story, sounds like a good shoot to me.
tonytulipz
member
goose said:
I remember that story well. He was also mentally ill. They gave him much more time then the NO man too. It was highly publicized and I think they did Tazer him also. Again.....glad I dont have to make those decisions.
CGofMP
Member
Let's face it the cops screwed up!!
From the reports I heard a cop had to move out of the way as the suspect was allegedly about to stab one of them in the chest with his 'less than a gun' weapon.
I'm sorry, but if a cop had to MOVE to keep from being sliced and diced then the cops screwed up! The suspect should never have been allowed to get that close in the first place!
They shoulda busted the caps they did on this guy before he ever got close enough to a cop to make the cop move away from the knife. I say again - you are right - the cops screwed up! But not in the way JB and RTD seem to think they did. Basically as police they showed too much restraint.
Leg shots are for Dirty Harry and other fake cowboys in the movies... there are too many things that can and will go wrong when you start playing the Annie Oakley game when your body is doing a full adrenaline dump and you have innocent bystanders downrange. If its important enough to pull the trigger for then its important enough to shoot to stop in the most efficient and quickest manner possible. That means center of mass and that may mean somone wielding a knife buys it. So be it.
I am no fan of the NO PD from all I hear I could never work for them, too dirty.. but that does notmean that they need to put themselves in mortal danger as police.
From the reports I heard a cop had to move out of the way as the suspect was allegedly about to stab one of them in the chest with his 'less than a gun' weapon.
I'm sorry, but if a cop had to MOVE to keep from being sliced and diced then the cops screwed up! The suspect should never have been allowed to get that close in the first place!
They shoulda busted the caps they did on this guy before he ever got close enough to a cop to make the cop move away from the knife. I say again - you are right - the cops screwed up! But not in the way JB and RTD seem to think they did. Basically as police they showed too much restraint.
Leg shots are for Dirty Harry and other fake cowboys in the movies... there are too many things that can and will go wrong when you start playing the Annie Oakley game when your body is doing a full adrenaline dump and you have innocent bystanders downrange. If its important enough to pull the trigger for then its important enough to shoot to stop in the most efficient and quickest manner possible. That means center of mass and that may mean somone wielding a knife buys it. So be it.
I am no fan of the NO PD from all I hear I could never work for them, too dirty.. but that does notmean that they need to put themselves in mortal danger as police.
stevelyn
Member
Still deadly force. Just a bigger bullet on wheels.
Jbar4Ranch
Member
They could have just pointed off behind him somewhere and yelled, "Hey look, there goes Elvis!" and tackled him when he turned to look.
No matter how the situation was handled, someone would be saying, "Why didn't they do this..." or "Why did they have to do that..." Whether it's physical or just PR, a situation like this is lose/lose for LE. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. When they draw and say "HIT THE GROUND"... do what they say, and there's no problem.
No matter how the situation was handled, someone would be saying, "Why didn't they do this..." or "Why did they have to do that..." Whether it's physical or just PR, a situation like this is lose/lose for LE. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. When they draw and say "HIT THE GROUND"... do what they say, and there's no problem.
Cousin Mike
Member
Just figured I'd chime in w/my $0.02:
I remember stopping by the police station with my uncle (who was an LEO for over 20 years) when I was a child. I can't remember why I was there, but I remember noticing a man-sized target on the wall of one of the officers he introduced me to. The X was shot out of the middle of the target, which at the time I didn't understand. It looked like a weird place to shoot a person in my young mind (I might have been 6 when this happened), so I inquired as to why they aimed at peoples stomachs.
The officer explained that when they train, they shoot to stop the threat, and that's the best place to aim to stop someone. I asked her why they didn't just shoot for the head, and her reply was something to the effect of:
"Because that's shooting to kill. We shoot to stop."
Lots of people survive being shot COM. Lots of others don't. I don't think shooting COM is really trying to kill, and although I haven't seen the video of the shooting, sounds like a clean shoot to me.
I remember stopping by the police station with my uncle (who was an LEO for over 20 years) when I was a child. I can't remember why I was there, but I remember noticing a man-sized target on the wall of one of the officers he introduced me to. The X was shot out of the middle of the target, which at the time I didn't understand. It looked like a weird place to shoot a person in my young mind (I might have been 6 when this happened), so I inquired as to why they aimed at peoples stomachs.
The officer explained that when they train, they shoot to stop the threat, and that's the best place to aim to stop someone. I asked her why they didn't just shoot for the head, and her reply was something to the effect of:
"Because that's shooting to kill. We shoot to stop."
Lots of people survive being shot COM. Lots of others don't. I don't think shooting COM is really trying to kill, and although I haven't seen the video of the shooting, sounds like a clean shoot to me.
sfhogman
Member
To me, this looks like a possible suicide by cop. Do any LEOS on the board come away thinking that might be possible?
The training involves the use of pepper spray and/or Taser, but if niether of those are effective (or available) then the only safe way to deal with a knife wielding attacker that has failed to be persuaded to drop the knife is to shoot them Center Of Mass. I'm trained in using a knife and I can tell you that there is nothing about a knife that is less dangerous than a handgun.
If you do not shoot COM and shoot at the arm or leg you most probably will miss. These are moving targes that are considerably smaller than the body. This puts others in danger because that bullet is now moving beyond the intended target and totally out of anyone's control endangering bystanders dozens of yards away and at nearly any angle to the line of fire. If you are exceedingly lucky and do hit the arm or leg you most probably will not get a disabling wound. The knife wielder is not calm and rational and will be flooded with adrenaline. You will be dealing now with a wounded person who is far more agitated than a moment before and more likely to press the attack forcing you to shoot COM. TV and movies don't reflect real life firearms conflicts any more than they do how pretty your neighbors are.
The only rational protocol for dealing with a knife attack where pepper spray or taser doesn't work is to shoot to stop the attacker and the only effective way to do that with a handgun is to shoot COM.
Powderman
Member
Ho-kay...here we go:
1. "Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"
I'll say this as delicately as I can. Get real, fella! Have you ever tried to disarm someone with a knife, outside of a dojo? It gets ugly REAL fast.
You WILL be sliced. You WILL be cut, and you WILL be cut badly. I don't give a flying fart about how effective someone says this "technique" is or is not, here is the truth: If you face someone with a knife, and you decide to take them on, count on serious injury--TO YOURSELF.
2. "I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy."
Do you carry a gun? Have you even FIRED a gun? No slam intended, fella, but this sounds like the thing I'd expect to hear from a 14 year old who's been playing too much Rainbow Six.
First of all, a knife is a lethal weapon, able to cause death or serious bodily harm. If one is deployed against you, deadly force is authorized and justified in every State in the Union. You use the firearm of your choice, placing aimed shots center of mass of the exposed target until the assailant stops whatever they're doing that put you in danger.
Shots to the legs will stop someone? Please don't make me laugh. They MIGHT--then, again, they might NOT. Are you willing to bet your life on it?
Talk to some combat vets who suffered leg wounds. A good portion will probably tell you that they DID NOT EVEN FEEL THE WOUND UNTIL THE FIGHT WAS OVER.
3. "Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder. "
Ever heard of the Tueller drill? Read up on it, then tell me how the poor machetero did not have to die.
4. "There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him."
Not to criticize my brothers in the Great White North too much, but I think they were WAY too concerned with the perp's welfare.
I am one of my Department's precision riflemen. If there is a hostage situation and I have the OK to engage, you can bet I'll turn into a thoracic surgeon--the perp will receive a 168 grain .308 caliber telegram, center of mass.
If the head is the only thing that is exposed, so be it.
You DON'T get funny and try to shoot a gun out of someone's hand. Ever seen what happens when a bullet hits steel? All kinds of commotion, I guarantee. NOT the thing to have happen next to a hostage's head.
5. "I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot. "
Thanks for the slam, fella. It's really appreciated, and I am SO enlightened to know that you think of us as a bunch of murdering thugs. :banghead:
6.
One of the most credible and sensible posts in the entire thread.
I invite ANY of our Rambos who have posted about how bad a job the cops did in this scenario to post your curriculum vitae, citing your experience in these situations. If you have no such experience, let me lay it out for you.
We are chosen out of many, many applicants, screened carefully and selected after a process that can take as long as a year and a half or even more to complete.
We fill many hats during our shift--watchman, teacher, counselor, first responder, public relations contact, secretary, minister or friend.
One of the hats we have to wear sometimes is that of bodyguard--to protect you, the person who lives in our patrol area from those who would do you harm.
In some cases, and at some times, some people decide to break the law. When we come to take them into custody to answer to you--the peaceful resident--for breaching the peace with their actions, some of them attempt to hurt us in the cause of escaping or resisting lawful arrest.
In that case, the law has given us the tools and the authority to cause great bodily harm, even unto death--if needed--to ensure that you, the peaceful resident of our patrol area can sleep safely, play with your children and enjoy your homes, property and belongings without fear.
DON'T second guess us or Monday-morning quarterback--especially when you obviously don't even have the experience--much less the credentials--to critique our actions.
Rant off.
1. "Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"
I'll say this as delicately as I can. Get real, fella! Have you ever tried to disarm someone with a knife, outside of a dojo? It gets ugly REAL fast.
You WILL be sliced. You WILL be cut, and you WILL be cut badly. I don't give a flying fart about how effective someone says this "technique" is or is not, here is the truth: If you face someone with a knife, and you decide to take them on, count on serious injury--TO YOURSELF.
2. "I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy."
Do you carry a gun? Have you even FIRED a gun? No slam intended, fella, but this sounds like the thing I'd expect to hear from a 14 year old who's been playing too much Rainbow Six.
First of all, a knife is a lethal weapon, able to cause death or serious bodily harm. If one is deployed against you, deadly force is authorized and justified in every State in the Union. You use the firearm of your choice, placing aimed shots center of mass of the exposed target until the assailant stops whatever they're doing that put you in danger.
Shots to the legs will stop someone? Please don't make me laugh. They MIGHT--then, again, they might NOT. Are you willing to bet your life on it?
Talk to some combat vets who suffered leg wounds. A good portion will probably tell you that they DID NOT EVEN FEEL THE WOUND UNTIL THE FIGHT WAS OVER.
3. "Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder. "
Ever heard of the Tueller drill? Read up on it, then tell me how the poor machetero did not have to die.
4. "There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him."
Not to criticize my brothers in the Great White North too much, but I think they were WAY too concerned with the perp's welfare.
I am one of my Department's precision riflemen. If there is a hostage situation and I have the OK to engage, you can bet I'll turn into a thoracic surgeon--the perp will receive a 168 grain .308 caliber telegram, center of mass.
If the head is the only thing that is exposed, so be it.
You DON'T get funny and try to shoot a gun out of someone's hand. Ever seen what happens when a bullet hits steel? All kinds of commotion, I guarantee. NOT the thing to have happen next to a hostage's head.
5. "I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot. "
Thanks for the slam, fella. It's really appreciated, and I am SO enlightened to know that you think of us as a bunch of murdering thugs. :banghead:
6.
One of the most credible and sensible posts in the entire thread.
I invite ANY of our Rambos who have posted about how bad a job the cops did in this scenario to post your curriculum vitae, citing your experience in these situations. If you have no such experience, let me lay it out for you.
We are chosen out of many, many applicants, screened carefully and selected after a process that can take as long as a year and a half or even more to complete.
We fill many hats during our shift--watchman, teacher, counselor, first responder, public relations contact, secretary, minister or friend.
One of the hats we have to wear sometimes is that of bodyguard--to protect you, the person who lives in our patrol area from those who would do you harm.
In some cases, and at some times, some people decide to break the law. When we come to take them into custody to answer to you--the peaceful resident--for breaching the peace with their actions, some of them attempt to hurt us in the cause of escaping or resisting lawful arrest.
In that case, the law has given us the tools and the authority to cause great bodily harm, even unto death--if needed--to ensure that you, the peaceful resident of our patrol area can sleep safely, play with your children and enjoy your homes, property and belongings without fear.
DON'T second guess us or Monday-morning quarterback--especially when you obviously don't even have the experience--much less the credentials--to critique our actions.
Rant off.
fjolnirsson
Member
*off topic*
Nonsense. I've heard this repeated over and over, in so many different places. It's defeatist thinking. I've done disarms, in real life, 4 times. It is possible to do it without being harmed. Granted, I did get scratched, once. I am by no means, Bruce Lee, either. Sorry, this statement is a pet peeve of mine. It is best to accept the high probability of injury, should you attempt it. *back on topic*
Bearing that in mind, (but without seeing the video) I say good shoot. Based on simple situational facts presented here, I'd shoot the guy myself. I'm no longer as young and reckless as I once was, and I no longer go anywhere unarmed.
Police officers are expected to take certain risks when they decide to take the job. That doesn't mean volunteering to be somebody's pincushion. I'd like to see the folks in the article who were criticizing, do a better job. I think Powderman covered that part better than I could, though.
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