New Thoughts on Home Defense & 12 Gauge...

[Rifleman 173]

Here's something to think about as far as grabbing a 12 gauge shotgun for close range "social events..."

Imagine this scenario: One of your family members goes out one night to meet with friends. When they're out some bad guys start following your family member in a car. Things deteriorate and the bad guys chase your family member home and right into your driveway. You hear a gunshot, a lot of screaming coming through the night air so you grab your faithful friend, the ever-ready 12 gauge. You go outside to find you wife, son or daughter bent over the trunk or hood of a car with a punk waving a pistol around all the while threatening to kill your loved one. You know if you use the shotgun with 00 buckshot that things just aren't going to end up "happily ever after." Now what are you going to do? Transition to a pistol is one option BUT, more than likely, you're REALLY going to want to nail the dirtbag hard, fast and accurately with something else that has "more bite." Should we reconsider thinking about automatically going to a shotgun or should we think about going with something like a carbine or rifle that offers much more precision fire at fairly close ranges?

The reason I'm curious about your collective responses is because this event actually happened a couple of weekends ago in my town. People from a wedding party were chased home by some local gangbangers and a confrontation ensued in somebody's driveway with a punk having a girl bent over a car, firing a shot off and threatening to kill her. To effectively take out the guy with the shotgun you would have had to shoot him from about 35 yards away and we all know that 00 buck would expand too much to be effective on just one target and you'd hit the girl/innocent victim too. Any shot would be under 50 yards at maximum but more than 15 yards. Ideas?

 

[Chilean]

I use slugs in my 870P

 

[dstorm1911]

All of my 1300s are loaded with shot and slugs, all have a laser thats sighted for the slugs....... no hesitation required, as for 00 ya close the distance 00 outa an 18" barrel isn't the 5' pattern t.v would have ya believe its about 6" at 15 yards no biggie to take the guys head off at that range and family member is perfectly safe

 

[M1 Shooter]

Switch to slugs. I keep a couple slugs handy on my HD shotgun for just such a scenario. I've practiced with them and know where they hit out to about 75 yards. At 35 yards, I'd easily be able to take a head shot with my shotgun loaded with a slug.

 

[ravencon]

One useful approach to this scenario is to keep your shotgun magazine partially full with the buckshot of your choice and to leave room for a couple of slugs. Keep some slugs nearby, in a butt cuff or Side Saddle.

If shotguns aren't your thing a handy rifle/carbine can do HD long gun service quite nicely.

 

[foghornl]

I keep #4 Buck in my HomeLand Security Shotgun***, with a butt cuff of 5 slugs. I can dump the buckshot out of the chamber and insert a slug pretty darn quick, if required. I KNOW where that slug is going to hit, out to 50 Yds.


***Shotgun keeps my Home & Land Secure

 

[Rifleman 173]

I also thought about slugs too but I discounted them because this event happened in an urban area with apartment buildings and houses nearby. Sorry. I forgot to put that factor into the equation. Off in the distance, about a block away, there is a street with lots of moving vehicles on it too. Day and night traffic 24/7.

What I'm thinking about is having to take out the suspect with one really good shot, possibly a head shot, and then confront his buddies afterwards. I don't think that a bolt action rifle, in this case, would reload fast enough to suit me. Accurate and effective, yes, but not fast enough for my anticipated reloading purposes. What I'm looking at is an AR, AK or FN/FAL type rifle or an M1A, gas operated, magazine fed, air cooled rifle? Caliber? Hmm... 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62X39 or 7.62 NATO? No laser sight to give me away but maybe a red dot scope of some sort to increase speed and my accuracy? EOTech or Kobra from Tantal? Oh... and lots of practice. Hit hard, fast and extract the family member from out of harm's way is my idea. No negotiations. No dialogue. No warning. Just be as effective as I can and as fast as I can if this same thing happened at my home.

 

[indie]

I was considering a shotgun as my next gun, but i have decided i want a semi automatic saiga 16" 7.62 rifle instead of a shotgun. From a defensive perspective, I think the semi-auto rifle can do anything the shotgun can do and then some with a faster follow up, less recoil, and with more precision.

 

[jacobhh]

The big problem with this scenario is that nothing is safe!

Let's assume you're not Spec ops trained military or a law
officer well experienced in armed confrontation, your adrenaline
is pumping, hand shaking and for the first time in your life
about to shoot a real human being in the general direction
of a loved one, range experience is better than no experience
but not much!

I agree your most accurate piece is the best choice for a shot,
but it might be best to charge the @#!%* with a bayonet after
sneaking around closer.

 

[dstorm1911]

If its an urban area etc that ya feel is unsafe for a slug then its deffinetly not safe for a higher velocity carbine round!!! Think bout that a second the slug is much easier to stop by a wall as its big and its slow while a high velocity rifle round just zips right through...

In that situation ya still want the scatter gun, the beutiful thing bout a pump is a wide array of ammo choices, ya simply use your #4 shot aim high...... same way ya hunt rabits with a scatter gun........ ya can even use #7 shot the key is to advance while keeping the suspects head at the bottom of the shot pattern, ya gotta PRACTICE with any gun ya plan to use for HD including the schotgun Onea my drills is to set two soda cans ontop of each other I will do 8 like this randomly set around my range ya gotta take out the top can without hitting the bottom can its actually not hard to do the challenge is when ya start speeding up the pace. I don't use the laser for practice much but its sighted to the center of my shot pattern, I have onea these hidden in every room of our house as we are located right in the middle of smugglers ally out here on the MEX/AZ border everyone in the house is very familiar with useing them in variouse scenarios

it won't let me post the pics as they are already posted in

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289858&page=2

Anyhow when we built the house the gun vaults went underground and every room got a concealed panel for the 1300 defenders, I hadda use telescoping stocks to make em fit the compartments, each has a red dot sighted on slugs with a laser mounted with it all of em are loaded the same first rnd is #7 shot next 2 are #4 buckshot next 3 are 00 buckshot last is a slug they are 8 rnd capacity so ya can jump right to a slug from the carrier on the stock if need be without ejecting any rnds from the mag.... my tiny lil 4'10" 75 lb step daughter has no problem with em in fact she has a neat twist on the soda cans....... she shoots the bottom can without touchin the top can with even a single pellet of #7!! at ranges inside 20 yards #7 will destroy a human face and....... no armour of clothing to get in the way yet it'll feel like a light rain right across the street...... anyone who's ever been hunting has been dusted at least once from shots from across the lake

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

1. Pattern your shotgun with the defensive load you plan to use at a variety of ranges

2. Actually train with the long gun of your choice in the conditions you expect to use it in

Once you do those two things, you won't have to rely on Internet hypotheticals. You'll know what the firearm you are using is capable of. My own experience is that my 870 loaded with the Hornady TAP 00 buck round can make a torso shot at 35 yds.

 

[telomerase]

If its an urban area etc that ya feel is unsafe for a slug then its deffinetly not safe for a higher velocity carbine round!!! Think bout that a second the slug is much easier to stop by a wall as its big and its slow while a high velocity rifle round just zips right through...

The slug will just go on and on through drywall after drywall. The 55-grain .223 will blow up on the first thing it hits.

I hope my neighbors own rifles...

 

[dstorm1911]

Telomerase, ya might wanna go out and give that a try........ ya'll find that as little as 2 layers of sheet rock will stop a slug past 25 yards, it won't stop a sabot but it will stop a police issue slug.......... ya wanna stand on the other side of those walls and test your theory bout the 5.56? Been there..... police cruiser car doors won't stop a 5.56 either.... now step it up to a 7.62x39 and how many walls ya want to be behind before we start the test?

HOWEVER the interior panel in aforementioned police cruiser was enough to stop 3 police issued slugs..... the suspect had killed two Oregon state troopers and was holed up with their weapons in a house I was onea the first 4 to arrive and had my cruiser set as a barricade the 5.56 rounds were not only passing right through the passenger door but the drivers side door as well the passenger door did capture all of the slugs that hit my vehicle dureing the 5 hour stand off........ NONE of my 12 gauge slugs penetrated the house wall under the window the man was shooting from but another officer armed with an AR-15 took him down with 3 rounds through the same wall after he refused to release his ex wife or kids

 

[Dark_Harvest]

the shot won't spread that much that fast.

pattern your gun/load, and be aware of what it will do, and not do.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Telomerase, ya might wanna go out and give that a try........ ya'll find that as little as 2 layers of sheet rock will stop a slug past 25 yards, it won't stop a sabot but it will stop a police issue slug..........

That strikes me as odd because when we fired slugs at 300yds, one of them penetrated a railroad tie on the berm and continued another 8" or so into the packed earth.

Personally, I don't think it would be a wise idea to stand behind two layers of sheet rock at 25yds and assume you are safe from any 12ga slug. Perhaps you should take your own advice and give that a try before suggesting it to others?

 

[dstorm1911]

heres ya a few links ya might find interesting, want close range stopping power with zero over penetration...... load of some dimes in the ol scatter gun nets ya a 6" pattern at 25 yards and only 3" of penetration but some great energy transfer

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm

now at 12 feet those same slugs become super penetrators this is when ya wanna be useing the #4 shot instead save the slugs for longer range or precision engagements

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

The .223 etc....... blast right through all the walls in your house and your neighbors house

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

 

[dstorm1911]

B-Roberts, I wasn't suggestin he try standing behind 2 sheets of sheet rock, I was saying if he was that confident in the single sheet stopping a .223 then maybe he would like to test the theory...

What kind of slugs were ya useing at 300 yards?

The police issued slugs are reduced loads at least the ones issued in Oregon were we used em for breaching doors before anyone ever thought of a prefragmented round to do the job....... they'd bust out a dead bolt very nicley,

Now deer slugs or sabots designed for maximum range and penetration are a lil different than deffensive loadings, all of my experience is with combat loadings as I don't do much hunting......... out at Thunder ranch we used to pick the slugs up off the 100 yard range were they bounced off the 1/2" plywood target back boards........

 

[CWL]

35 yards? Yawn...slug selection. Next question.

Actually, if I hear gunshot(s) outside, I do not go outside.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I am probably the biggest "tight pattern" proponent on THR, but I don't own a single shotgun/barrel/choke/buckshot combination that I would use at 35 yards in anything other than a "to whom it may concern" situation. My limit for buckshot is about 25 yards. That's where I pattern buckshot for decisions on what works with what gun. That's about as far as I trust any gun i have to maintain a coherent pattern.

And that's why the magazines on the guns that are outside the safe when we are home are loaded one round short with buckshot, and the Sidesaddles all are loaded with slugs.

Select slug drill here consists of loading a slug from the Sidesaddle into the magazine (that's why it has room for one more round) and running it into the chamber. Every round in the Sidesaddle is a slug, if it looks as though one slug won't be enough you have room to load another into the magazine after you run the first one up into the pipe.

If things are really seriously in the wind, then you do shoot one load one with slugs until the Sidesaddle is empty. Gotta remember the right sequence- load a slug, pump, load a slug, shoot, pump, load a slug, shoot, pump, load a slug and so on. You have to get the sequence started right and keep it going right, otherwise you're going to pump a load of buckshot up out of your magazine and butcher your no-shoots. Louis Awerbuck says a shotgun is a thinking man's weapon... do you get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory? 8^)

Or you can do what Master Louis does and just shoot slugs, period. He says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammunition.

IF you have to worry about backstops, you can always try to set up your shot so something safe is behind your target. Running out into the midst of a situation involving gunshots that you haven't scoped out from cover first is a genuinely BAD plan- sneak, peek and then scoot.

If no good backstop presents itself handily, then there is one other option to look at. Lower your own profile by going to a kneeling position to take your shot. If gunshots are being fired out there, you probably ought to go to kneeling behind some substantial COVER while you're at it, like the engine compartment of a nearby car. That might have the added bonus of giving you something against which to steady your aim- always an advantage.

Going to a lowered position will elevate your muzzle and lift your line of fire. That might help you clear no-shoots in the target background. It also might complicate things with foreground no-shoots though. Few blessings in life are unmixed. You have to find a way to do what you need to do.

IMHO the BEST thing to do is try and avoid that situation in the first place- make sure no family member of driving age EVER goes out without a cell phone, and train them NOT TO COME HOME if followed, but to call for help, report their location, and head for the closest place they can 'fort up.' That means someplace police are likely to be, like the local police station or sheriff's office or highway patrol station. If they are in contact with a 9-1-1 dispatcher, that person can route them to the nearest unit on patrol and let that unit know to BOLO your family member and their pursuers. And any family member old enough and responsible enough to carry, should be carrying- if that's an option for your state/locality.

hth,

lpl/nc

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What kind of slugs were ya useing at 300 yards?

You would have to ask the people doing the shooting; but I believe they were using Federal Reduced Recoil. Also to clarify, the "we" makes it sound like I was there and I was not. I used "we" because two of the guys who were there doing the shooting are part of a group of guys I go shooting with regularly. I know at least one of them is a THR member, so maybe he can chime in on type of ammo. I came in after the fact on this one though.

As for reduced loads, I'm not aware of any reduced load slug that will stop in two layers of sheetrock. Even frangible breaching slugs will penetrate more than two layers of sheetrock. What is the brand and loading of this slug that you say will not penetrate two layers of sheetrock - and why would the police be using something against people that won't reliably penetrate two layers of sheetrock?

out at Thunder ranch we used to pick the slugs up off the 100 yard range were they bounced off the 1/2" plywood target back boards........

Is that a fact? I would think that a 1oz chunk of metal with a muzzle velocity of 1200fps wouldn't have much trouble penetrating 1/2" plywood at 100yds. 9mm seems to do it just fine from my pistol at 100yds despite leaving the muzzle at about 1250fps and having a lot less mass. What brand and loading of ammo was being used?

 

[axeman_g]

+1 to Dave M's comment. Buck is the choice here, elevate for a high shot and let fly. My 20" barrels give a 15-18" pattern at 30yds with 000. Keep walking at target and be ready to pull trigger. Make sure you want to kill this target, since your pointing the gun at him.

Mostl likely, GB sees 12g mouth staring at him and disassociates himself from his physical being.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Slugs, just like the ones in the Sidesaddle.....

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I totally botched the details on the 300yd shotgun shooting. An excellent example of why I should stick to talking about things I have witnessed firsthand. Everytime I try to retell someone else's story, I botch the details and start passing around bad information.

Anyway - while they did shoot at a 4x4 gong with 12ga slugs at 300yds, the shot I referenced happened at the 200yd line. Also, instead of passing through a railroad tie at the base of the berm and into the berm, the slug passed through the base of the target stand (a pine 2"x4" - big difference) and penetrated 8-12" into the berm. They were able to recover the slug (a Hornady SST). Slugs used during the shoot were Remington, Winchester Ranger and Hornady.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

"Charge!"

Would it be totally out of place, in the scenario described by the OP wherein you have a shotgun loaded with Buckshot, to simply close the distance to the attacker before shooting?

If the distance is a few dozen yards, it would only take seconds to close the range to something feasible for that load. Granted that every second you're in the open facing an armed opponent is a second for him to see you, recognize an armed threat, and engage... but it still seems like a somewhat viable option in a Hobson's choice type situation. I may be wrong, of course, but my instinct in that scenario would be to advance until I'm within effective range.

 

[RichardB]

FourNinerFoxtrot, Totally agree, even with a handgun. Shakey hands do not make for clean head shots at 35 yards.