A buddy of mine let me shoot his Zouave .58 cal BP rifle. I immediately fell in love with BP rifles. I would like to get on of my own. However, I am a relatively new gun enthusiast and an even newer enthusiast towards BP shooting. I would like to purchase a rifle but there are quite a bit of manufacturers out there making replicas I dont know where to start looking. I am interested in a percussion cap rifle. I will use it to plink around with, maybe join a BP club. Accuracy would be nice. My budget is $400 to $800 on a rifle. Which brand would you recommend and why? Thanks for your help!!
New to BP.......which rifle??
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RoaringBull
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I got my first bp rifle from Cabela's. It is a Pedersoli Kentucky flintlock and was only $430. Very accurate out of the box and easy to take down and clean. My son shoots a Traditions Hawken left-handed that is nice as well and was only $430-450.
I would not suggest a flintlock for a first rifle; you're right to specify a caplock.
For new production rifles your choices (in your price range) are Thompson Center's Hawken for about $400, Pedersoli's Rocky Mountain Hawken at about $700, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle, Great Plains Hunter, Deerstalker or Trade Rifle from about $470 to about $700 or one of the many Traditions offerings: Kentucky, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, Shenandoah, Deerhunter, Hawken and Mountain Man.
The only American made rifle in the pack is Thompson Center. They make a good quality, reasonably priced firearm; frankly, you can't go wrong buying a T/C in terms of value and reliability. They won't be the prettiest but they'll work reliably and continuously for many, many years if not abused. Lyman also makes great products, although their rifles are by Investarms if Italy. I have no problem recommending any of either Thompson Centers's or Lyman's products.
For new production rifles your choices (in your price range) are Thompson Center's Hawken for about $400, Pedersoli's Rocky Mountain Hawken at about $700, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle, Great Plains Hunter, Deerstalker or Trade Rifle from about $470 to about $700 or one of the many Traditions offerings: Kentucky, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, Shenandoah, Deerhunter, Hawken and Mountain Man.
The only American made rifle in the pack is Thompson Center. They make a good quality, reasonably priced firearm; frankly, you can't go wrong buying a T/C in terms of value and reliability. They won't be the prettiest but they'll work reliably and continuously for many, many years if not abused. Lyman also makes great products, although their rifles are by Investarms if Italy. I have no problem recommending any of either Thompson Centers's or Lyman's products.
Pancho
Member
Mykeal stole my thunder but I'll graciously give it to him because he know what he's talking about. The only thing I can add is to use your computer to look at all of the possibilities that Mykeal suggested and figure out what speaks to you. Their are a lot of styles to consider even though Mykeal has narrowed it down by reputable manufacturers. To me the safest bet would be Thompson Center or Pedersoli. If you decide to consider a used gun come back to the forum and we'll talk about how not to get screwed. Unlike smokeless guns a lot of muzzleloaders have been abused and it isn't easy to see (you can't easily look through the bore).
With the help of my friend who owns the Zouave......I think I have narrowed it down to a Hawkins rifle. I really like the Pedersoli Missouri River Hawkins. I like that I can shoot conacles. Can the other Pedersoli (Rocky Mtn. Hawken) shoot conacles? The TC looks nice, but the Pedersoli speaks to me a bit more. The Gander Mtn. store in my town has a new Traditions Hawkens for $299. Should I get the Traditions and save my $$ or is the Pedersoli worth the extra cash. Thanks for all of your help!!!
arcticap
Member
The Pedersoli Hawken has a 1 in 65" twist which is a little too slow to shoot most concials well.
It might shoot the short Buffalo Ball-ets out to 70 yards...maybe. But generally it's not going to
be a good conical shooter. Plus it costs almost $1000 through Cherry's Guns and weighs 9.5 to
10 pounds depending on the exact model:
http://www.cherrys.com/ped_rif1.htm
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=242&lang=en
Traditions guns are dependable & decent shooting. Their Hawken Woodsman has double set
triggers, a curved buttplate, a drum ignition system and adjustable sights. All of these features
have their advantages and disadvantages, and you can probably give some of them up
to get a similiar model that's walnut stocked from another maker, like the Lyman Trade Rifle
for example.
But that has a patent breech, a single trigger, and non-adjustable sights are standard
(even though some pictures show it with the optional peep sight - it's something to ask
the seller about).
Also, having brass furniture on a gun which will tarnish over time instead of blued steel is yet
another consideration. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Traditions Hawken. It does
have a hooked trigger guard and a curved buttplate that are features best left up to individual
taste.
Here's an outfit that has low prices on the .50 & .54 Trade Rifle and other Lyman's too.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/deptsearch2x.asp?dept=MUZZLELOADING&dept2=MUZZLELOADING RIFLES
And don't forget to take a closer look at the Zouave's and all of the other rifled muskets offered
by this Euroarms distributor:
https://www.regtqm.com/muskets.htm
http://www.euroarms.net/euroarms_netcompany_file/FRcompany_profile.htm
Good luck and let us know how everything works out.
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Pancho
Member
One advantage the TC has is the hooked breech. This allows for easy removal of the barrel and easier cleaning. I'm not sure if the Tradition's guns have that.
Articap, can you shed some light on this question?
Articap, can you shed some light on this question?
scrat
Member
for the cost of it i agree with everyone. Cabelas is the place to check. we have all checked all over the place on the best or the cheapests but overall i believe cabelas has them all beat.
Ok.........I have tossed out the idea of getting a TC or Traditions since I would like to shoot conacles and both those guns have a 48 twist. I have narrowed it down to 2 rifles, the Pedersoli Missouri River Hawkins and the Lyman Great Plains Hunter. The only deal is that the Pedersoli has a faster twist - its a 24 while the Lyman is at 32. However the Lyman has 32" barrel while the Pedersoli has a 30". The Pedersoli costs twice as much as the Lyman (Lyman is at $409 and the Soli is at $795). I know I can find a new Lyman, however after a few calls to some shops - everybody seems to be out of the Pedersoli. I have been quoted several months before they see another shipment. I guess it boils down to is the Pedersoli worth the wait and twice as much as the Lyman. Again, thanks for the all of your help!!!
arcticap
Member
The Traditions Hawken does have a hooked breech to more easily remove the barrel.
I didn't notice that the Missouri River Hawken had the fast 1 in 24" twist.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=241&lang=en
Have you tried to contact this outfit about its availability?
http://www.flintlocksetc.com/
I didn't notice that the Missouri River Hawken had the fast 1 in 24" twist.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=241&lang=en
Have you tried to contact this outfit about its availability?
http://www.flintlocksetc.com/
Steve,
Yes, I tried Flintlocks.........they only put one order in per year. At least thats what the guy told me on the phone today. Cherry's is out as well. However Cherrys will reorder but they said it can take up to several months between orders and there is no guarantee that the rifle I want will make it on the order. I cant recall if Dixies had one in stock or not. However, Dixies was almost $200 more expensive than Cherrys. Cherrys was asking $775 and I think Dixies wanted almost $995?? I went to Mid South and they had the Lyman for $409. If the Lyman is a respectable rifle then I will have no problem getting the Lyman. That leaves me the extra $400 to get all the accessories I need (I need a gun safe now as well). However, if the Pedersoli is worth the extra $400 and the 24 twist will make a huge difference over the 32 that the Lyman has, I have no problem paying $800 for a rifle - even if it means waiting!
Yes, I tried Flintlocks.........they only put one order in per year. At least thats what the guy told me on the phone today. Cherry's is out as well. However Cherrys will reorder but they said it can take up to several months between orders and there is no guarantee that the rifle I want will make it on the order. I cant recall if Dixies had one in stock or not. However, Dixies was almost $200 more expensive than Cherrys. Cherrys was asking $775 and I think Dixies wanted almost $995?? I went to Mid South and they had the Lyman for $409. If the Lyman is a respectable rifle then I will have no problem getting the Lyman. That leaves me the extra $400 to get all the accessories I need (I need a gun safe now as well). However, if the Pedersoli is worth the extra $400 and the 24 twist will make a huge difference over the 32 that the Lyman has, I have no problem paying $800 for a rifle - even if it means waiting!
Omnivore
Member
TC doesn't list the twist rate of the Hawken on their web site, but Cabela's has one with a 29" barrel and a 48" twist. Some of the Lymans and others also have the 48" twist:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...6a&type=product&cmCat=cchart_trd_blk_pwdr_rfl
A 48" twist is the "all-purpose" twist-- plenty good for conicals up to a little over 300 grains, no problem. I've shot 385s in mine OK. My Lyman Deerstalker (24" barrel, 48" twist) shoots patched ball and conicals quite acceptably. I've been using round ball though, pretty much all the time, 'cause they seem to work really well in that rifle.
The Hawken barrels are a bit longer than the Deerstalker, so you get a teeny bit more velocity out of them, plus they often have an adjustable rear sight, which you would find very handy if you're going from ball to conical and back.
I've been thinking of getting a longer Green Mountain barrel for the Lyman, and an adjustable sight.
Reading the reviews on the Cabela's Blue Ridge rifles, and looking at them in person, makes me want one. They're also in your price range and they come in flint and caplock. Much longer barrel-- better velocity, longer sight radius, but the tradeoff is they're going to be a bit harder to get around in close woods and brush.
I fired my friend's Italian-made Zouave, and I thought it was a real hoot. Nice rifle, but Heavy, and trigger was awful, IMO (that could be corrected). Also in your price range.
I think the main thing is to get something from a dealer you can trust, and then work with the rifle, find the loads it likes (and you like) and then stick with one or two of your best-performing loads. It's a blast!
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...6a&type=product&cmCat=cchart_trd_blk_pwdr_rfl
A 48" twist is the "all-purpose" twist-- plenty good for conicals up to a little over 300 grains, no problem. I've shot 385s in mine OK. My Lyman Deerstalker (24" barrel, 48" twist) shoots patched ball and conicals quite acceptably. I've been using round ball though, pretty much all the time, 'cause they seem to work really well in that rifle.
The Hawken barrels are a bit longer than the Deerstalker, so you get a teeny bit more velocity out of them, plus they often have an adjustable rear sight, which you would find very handy if you're going from ball to conical and back.
I've been thinking of getting a longer Green Mountain barrel for the Lyman, and an adjustable sight.
Reading the reviews on the Cabela's Blue Ridge rifles, and looking at them in person, makes me want one. They're also in your price range and they come in flint and caplock. Much longer barrel-- better velocity, longer sight radius, but the tradeoff is they're going to be a bit harder to get around in close woods and brush.
I fired my friend's Italian-made Zouave, and I thought it was a real hoot. Nice rifle, but Heavy, and trigger was awful, IMO (that could be corrected). Also in your price range.
I think the main thing is to get something from a dealer you can trust, and then work with the rifle, find the loads it likes (and you like) and then stick with one or two of your best-performing loads. It's a blast!
bigjohnson
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The first BP rifle I bought (in 1972) was a TC Hawken in .45 caliber. It would shoot a 1" group at 50 yards easily. I strongly recommend the TC Hawken (.50 Cal would be better) using the Lyman Maxi-Ball. The accuracy will astound you.
You could also try one of the Pedersoli Zouaves. Get the barrel re-lined by Bobby Hoyt (Fairfield, PA), and replace the internal lock parts with Rich Cross parts. You'll end up with a musket that will be extremely accurate, and using the standard minie ball, will be much faster to load than other BP rifles.
You could also try one of the Pedersoli Zouaves. Get the barrel re-lined by Bobby Hoyt (Fairfield, PA), and replace the internal lock parts with Rich Cross parts. You'll end up with a musket that will be extremely accurate, and using the standard minie ball, will be much faster to load than other BP rifles.
bigjohnson
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It should be fairly easy to build a target-grade Zouaze for less than $800.
$400 for the rifle
$200 to reline the barrel
$150 for the Rich Cross lock parts
I'd get the lock rebuilt first, and see how the gun shoots. Slug the bore, then cast and size minie balls 2 thousandths smaller (i.e. .575 minies in a .577 bore). Slugging the bore is important, as both Euroarms and Pedersoli Zouaves' bores will vary somewhat.
Then work up your load to see how accurately your gun will shoot. If it won't hold a 2" group at 50 yards, then I'd think about a reline job. I shoot an 1855 Harpers Ferry rifle with a Hoyt barrel that will hold a 1" group at 50 yards using 42 grains of Goex FFg. If I use 44 grains of the same powder, the group opens up to 4", so spending the time to work up a correct load is important.
$400 for the rifle
$200 to reline the barrel
$150 for the Rich Cross lock parts
I'd get the lock rebuilt first, and see how the gun shoots. Slug the bore, then cast and size minie balls 2 thousandths smaller (i.e. .575 minies in a .577 bore). Slugging the bore is important, as both Euroarms and Pedersoli Zouaves' bores will vary somewhat.
Then work up your load to see how accurately your gun will shoot. If it won't hold a 2" group at 50 yards, then I'd think about a reline job. I shoot an 1855 Harpers Ferry rifle with a Hoyt barrel that will hold a 1" group at 50 yards using 42 grains of Goex FFg. If I use 44 grains of the same powder, the group opens up to 4", so spending the time to work up a correct load is important.
bigjohnson
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Give a call to Bill Osbourne at Lodgewood Manufacturing in Whitewater, Wisc. Tell Bill what you want to do, and get his advice. He has original and reproduction guns that are target-ready, and can get you just about anything you would need. If you're in the area, plan on attending the North-South Skirmish Assn. national matches at Fort Shenandoah, VA (just NW of Winchester) during the weekend of 5/17. There are usually 50 to 75 sutlers there, selling a large variety of muzzle-loading guns and accessories. You can find out more about skirmishing at N-SSA.ORG
Please note that skirmishers are NOT reenactors. We shoot real bullets (not at each other, of course) in timed competition, using original and reproduction rifled muskets, carbines, pistols, smoothbores, and full-size artillery.
The sutlers start setting up their displays on Thursday, 5/15, and are generally open through about noon on Sunday.
Please note that skirmishers are NOT reenactors. We shoot real bullets (not at each other, of course) in timed competition, using original and reproduction rifled muskets, carbines, pistols, smoothbores, and full-size artillery.
The sutlers start setting up their displays on Thursday, 5/15, and are generally open through about noon on Sunday.
I have a beautiful thompson center 50 cal. if you are interested in a carbine length with 20 inch barrel. I have pictures to an email address. 200.00 shipped. or 225.00 shipped with powder flask, measure and capper and a few remaining balls and patches.
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