New to more traditional BP shooting

[jbkebert]

I have a couple questions for all of you seasoned BP shooters. I have been in-line BP for several years now. So I am not completly new to the use of it. I just sent a check to a THR member and purchased a Traditions Hawken rifle cap lock. I went to the gun shop today and picked up from #11 caps, a box of Hornady .490 balls, and a bag of prelubed patches.

So what else do I need to be thinking about getting. I know a short starter would be good and I am looking for one. Since I have been using a T/C Encore and a Omega a short starter has not been needed. Also what can I expect for accuracy out of this new rifle. My Encore will print MOA if not sub-moa groups at 100 yards if I really take my time and am really finicky on my loads. I don't think I will get the same kind of accuracy and that is completly fine with me. I bought this for something new to try. Are we talking 3-4" groups more/less?
Also what is the weight of the balls I bought. Nothing is printed on the box or on their website. I guess I could just weigh some on a powder scale and check myself. Anyway any tips,tricks you all know please pass along.

 

[dispatch55126]

I've never used a bullet starter in my Hawkens. I use a .490 RB and a 0.10 lubed patch and can press the ball flush with the crown with my thumb. Make sure you use loose powder and give the rifle a shake after charging it and before you ram the RPB down. That'll ensure a quick fire. At 50 yards from a bench, I can get 2"-3" groups from RPB using 95gr. of AP.

 

[arcticap]

The older discontinued Traditions Hawken had a slow 1 in 66" twist for mostly shooting rounds balls, while their current newer Hawken has a 1 in 48" twist for shooting round balls, conicals and even sabots.
Do you know which twist your barrel has?

The slow twist usually requires more powder to obtain better accuracy while the medium twist may require less powder.
If it's a medium twist then work up a load by starting at ~50 grains of powder and increasing it by 5-10 grain increments.

 

[jbkebert]

The rifle has a 1:48 twist rate. It is also left handed I don't think that matters to a hill of beans. I assume I can shoot it right handed without much trouble?

 

[BHP FAN]

Wear safety glasses.

 

[jbkebert]

I was thinking of the safety glasses thing myself. Since what I am used to is sealed breech and this will have sparks pretty close to my face. Might be a pretty good idea. Anything else I should know. I have around a pound and a half of triple seven. The website said its okay with reduced loads. I may pick up some Goex but I want to thin down what I have. I caught the triple 7 on clearnace a couple years ago at Walmart. At the end of M/L season had it for $7 a pound for loose. I bought everything I could 4# worth.

 

[poetgrey]

A new muzzle loader

One could start by shooting patched balls with recommended loads just to what kind of group it throws. I made my own patch cutters and lube the patches myself. I would Bench rest everything that comes out of your new rifle until you have settled with the right combination (powder type and charge, patch size thickness and diameter, ball size) for the various reasons like hunting or competition shooting to name a couple. I feel a rifle not yet zeroed-in is next to useless depending on what it is you are doing. I use a system whereby a ball size is chosen first and experimented with last. Everything else follows in a specific order, powder type, charge weight starting at 25 yards to 75 with iron sights ( I can't see anymore!). I love the Hawkin. All of my utility muzzle loaders are in 50cal so one pouch of balls for pistols and rifles and no confusion. I have found that a tight fit is usually more accurate (but not always ) but harder to load. If I'm hunting on a day with lots of game running around I might switch to an easier load to enhance my participation. It's nice to have a few pre-determined load combination that you can depend on for accuracy.

 

[mykeal]

There is no reason your T/C Hawken cannot match your inlines for accuracy at 100 yards. However, it won't be easy. There is a very disciplined method that will result in the right combination of ball, patch powder and lube to get those results. It's a series of steps described in a paper by a man named Dutch Schoultz and available for the very reasonable price of $15. It's been used by thousands of bp shooters and almost all have been enthusiastic about the results. For just $15 you can't go wrong.
Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System

 

[azyogi]

I haven't weighed one but my reference book says a .490 round ball should be 167 grs. My accuracy went up with the addition of a tang mounted peep sight.

 

[jbkebert]

I was just looking for a tang mounted peep online. T/C makes what looks to be a pretty nice one. I do not know if it will fit on a Traditions without drilling and tapping. I checked Traditions website and found nothing under accessories. Does anyone know if there is a aftermarket peep that will fit this rifle. I don't want to drill or tap anything if I don't have to.

 

[mykeal]

Shouldn't that be 176 grains?

 

[azyogi]

pg. 222 NRA Firearms Fact Book [third edition] "standard U.S. Army shrapnel ball, which was .49" in diameter and weighed in at 167 grs.," my scales and .490's are already packed will try to verify this, when I get moved. Unless someone else can? Or were those old canister rounds even pure lead?

 

[jbkebert]

I just weighed about a dozen or so at random. They ranged from 178.4 grains at the lightest to 179.2 on the heaviest. So it sounds right from what you guys are saying. I am really thinking about buying a copy of that book from that dutch guy. Sounds like a interesting read.

 

[arcticap]

I am really thinking about buying a copy of that book from that dutch guy. Sounds like a interesting read.

The website doesn't say that it's a book...it only says that it's set of instructions.

The System

The complete system consists three sets of instructions covering the components that will combine to improve accuracy....

....Online support with Dr. 5x - Free on line support to answer any question about the system or to just "shoot" the breeze with Dutch.

http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

 

[mykeal]

The volume of a sphere is (4*Pi*R^3)/3; for a .490 diameter round ball that's 0.061601 cubic inches.

The density of pure lead is 2867.2 grains by weight per cubic inch.

0.061601*2867.2=176.622 grains by weight

Perhaps the old canister rounds were a lead alloy.

Dutch's 'system' is a package of stapled 8 1/2 X 11 loose leaf pages (why that matters I have no idea) - a series of monographs that he's written on the subject of black powder rifle accuracy. They describe a series of steps which anyone can take to determine the combination of variables that will result in the most accurate shooting any given black powder rifle can produce. They don't tell you the answer for your rifle; they tell you how to find the answer. $15. With the possible exceptions of an unfired presentation grade custom T/C Hawken for $75, or a stainless steel unfired and unturned Liberty model ROA in original boxes with papers for $100, it's the best bp investment I've ever made.

 

[jbkebert]

How often does one need to replace the nipple on a cap lock rifle? Are the nipples interchangable with other brands (one size fits all?) Finally how often do you completly break down a rifle like this for cleaning. I understand cleaning the barrel and nipple after each trip to the range and swabbing between shots. I guess what I am asking is do I need to break down the trigger group and pull everything out of the stock each time also. Or are these pretty well sealed and only require barrel and nipple cleaning on a regular basis.

 

[arcticap]

Nipple replacement depends on how much it's been fired and the condition. Some nipples will last a lifetime, others will need to be replaced. The Traditions & CVA guns take a 6 X 1mm nipple.

I've always used the factory nipples but after market nipples are available:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t.../search-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

The same applies to removing the lock for cleaning. It depends on how well it's sealed, the type of powder being fired and how it operates. Some folks will break it down once a year, some more often and some never.
I've found that if I place a small strip of masking tape over the opening to the lock works under the barrel that it seals up the moving parts really well. I just change the tape after shooting and leave the lock alone, only swabbing it out and oiling it with a cotton swab. But it depends on if there's room for the tape under the barrel. I've always managed to find enough room to apply the tape although the barrel channel fit can be tight with some guns.

 

[mykeal]

Nipples have two physical characteristics that need to be understood in replacing them. First is the thread size. These are the most popular ones in general use:

The other characteristic is the height of the nipple cone, which is unfortunately never specified by the suppliers. Generally, nipples with the same thread size are interchangeable without regard to manufacturer (and most aftermarket nipples are higher quality than the OEM nipples). With regard to height, you're usually in good shape if you buy 'rifle' nipples for your rifle and 'pistol' nipple for pistols and revolvers.

How often one needs to replace the nipple depends on what the nipple is made from and how it's maintained.

There are two ways that nipples can wear out: 'mushrooming' of the tip where the cap fits and gas erosion (aka gas 'cutting') of the flash channel. Mushrooming can be repaired by chucking the nipple in a drill and lightly filing/sanding the tip as it rotates. Gas erosion is not repairable.

You can diagnose a mushrooming problem by running your fingernail along the side of the cone towards the tip; you'll feel a ridge at the tip. Sometimes it's bad enough to see the deformation.

Gas erosion will be characterized by an increasing tendency to fail to set off the main charge. Repeated exposure to the hot gases that are produced by a cap and which set off the main powder charge will eventually erode the material in the flash channel below the cone where the cap is placed. The channel will eventually get larger and the gases will not be concentrated enough to reach the main powder chamber with enough heat to set off the powder. It is not repairable. In cheap, low carbon steel nipples such as those often put on guns by the original manufacturers, gas erosion can be a problem as early as a couple hundred shots. Stainless steel, or better yet, Ampco bronze nipples should last a few thousand shots.

I'd leave the nipple in place until you start to get FTF's. Avoid dry firing the gun to prevent mushrooming and even the cheap OEM nipples will give fairly good service. When you replace it, break out the wallet and get good, high quality stainless steel or Ampco bronze nipples; you may never need to buy another.

How often you clean the inside of the lock and trigger also depends on how heavily the gun is used. Certainly a complete teardown and cleaning after every range session is not necessary. I tear down, clean and oil my locks no less often than yearly, whether the gun was used or not. For the ones I use most often I inspect the locks and triggers by removing them about every 10 to 25 range sessions. Some need it more often than others. This is not necessarily a brand thing - each gun is different.

 

[jbkebert]

Well I got the rifle today and fired the first shot within 10 minutes the fed ex leaving. I fired a PRB at 40 yards from my back porch at a cardboard traget. I didn't hit exactly where I was aiming but within a couple inches. This might just be alot of fun. I'll post a range report next trip out.

 

[jbkebert]

Another question for you all. The set trigger or rear trigger on this rifle is like pulling the trigger on a fatory remington rifle. Very stiff and needs to be pulled with a team of oxen. The trigger is crisp and light and takes nothing to set off. I have not ever owned a gun with double triggers. Should the rear trigger be that hard to pull. I would say its in the 9-10# range and the front is in the 2# or a hair less range. I don't expect a hair trigger nor do I want one. It takes less effort to fired my SRH DA than to set this trigger. The manual says nothing about loosening tension off the set trigger.