New To Reloading - Lee Die Question

[Joshua M. Smith]

Hello,

I had a Lyman press sitting around for about a year, and finally remembered to buy dies for it.

The dies I got are Lee .45acp. There are four dies, but the instructions only cover three.

I have the first three (decapping, flaring, seating) set up to specifications.

The fourth I cannot find much about. From what I can find on the Web, it's "factory crimp die" or something of the sort.

Nobody seems to agree as to whether it's needed on the .45acp.

I am not reloading for anything except practice ammo.

Do I need this fourth die? If not, I'll put it back up. If I do, does anyone have instructions on how to set it up?

Thank you,

Josh <><

P.S. I have manuals on order, and will not go past the depriming process until I have them in hand and have read them. In fact, I am intentionally holding off on powder so that I'm not tempted to do this! No worries there. Thanks. J.S.

 

[NuJudge]

The FCD allows you to use the Seating die to only seat bullets, and not to crimp also. The FCD also has a Tungsten Carbide ring in it to make sure that the outside of the cartridge is within specification.

My gut feeling is that the separating Seat from Crimp is useful, but the sizing the outside of the case will not be necessary if other inspections are done right.

Some threads on the web regarding them:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9905&KW=J+Miller
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66163&st=0&p=767658&#entry767658
http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1151

 

[Remo-99]

Crimping with a seating die is OK, if a heavy crimp is not needed.

A 45acp shouldn't need a heavy crimp, as they chamber/headspace on the casemouth, and heavy crimping will cause chambering and headspace problems.
Mostly a crimp is applied to 45acp's to remove the casemouth belling, that is needed to seat lead bullets and a very slight tapper to ease chambering.

If this slight crimping cannot be done in the bullet seating die stage, then the FCD maybe needed.

Just my thoughts, though.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Thanks folks.

I'll set up the FCD on the turret, and only use it if it's needed.

Josh <><

 

[tkcomer]

If you go to the Lee Precision website, they have a video on how to set the FCD up.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'll set up the FCD on the turret, and only use it if it's needed.

How do you plan to know when it's "needed?"

Every round should have a taper crimp, at least enough to remove the case mouth flare, though there are debates about how much to squeeze it down after that.

The post sizing insert will iron out the lumps caused by bulk cast bullets in mixed brass, a common situation. People will tell you this will distort the bullet, ruin accuracy, reduce neck tension and cause all manner of trouble. But if you are loading those bulk cast bullets in mixed brass, the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp is the only way some of them are going to chamber in the gun.

If you are loading jacketed bullets, it probably won't do more than brush the side of the case anyhow.

Instructions are wonderful things, give them a try.

 

[SASS#23149]

You will need the crimp die as the bell at the mouth of the case has to be at lest 'ironed' flat,if not crimped a smidge.
Do you have an impact bullet puller? If so,just seat a test round,then see if you can push it inside the case using thumb pressure.Usually you can,and this is what the crimp die is for...so you can't.

 

[jcwit]

I put a match barrel on a 1911 automatic and rounds failed to chamber all the way. I called Lee and he told me to get a FCD, that should solve the problem. After setting it up and running a few rounds through it I had no more problem.

On my other 1911's I still don't need the FCD but of course I load them all the same.

Just depends on your pistol.

 

[jfh]

Lee FCDs serve to solve two different problems.

As some of us know, Lee (handgun) die sets were originally designed and built around a three-die reloading paradigm. In this sequence, the #3 die serves as a seater and crimper. The early die design actually puts a "modified" roll crimp on rounds when run down more, but at its high setting will do a taper crimp that has a bit of a diagonal edge to it.

However, the 3-die paradigm is a PITA to set up, especially for new reloaders. It requires careful tweaking of both the die body 'height' and the seater stem to achieve the correct bullet depth / LOA and the appropriate (kind of) crimp. Heaven help you if you want to change bullet designs once you've got it running right.

As Jim Watson and others pointed out, you want the .45ACP crimp to be both minimal and consistent.

Used in conjunction with the 3-die set, the FCD can be set up to use a 4-die paradigm in which the seating and crimping are done separately.

If you change bullets and experiment with loads, that's a huge benefit. And, generally, you will find it much easier have the #3 die body set high so that only case flare is removed as the bullet is seated, and then use the FCD die (or a Lee taper crimp die) to adjust the crimp you want for your ammo.

It's the second benefit of the FCD die--the post-sizing of the round--that is the controversial use.

That is, the FCD die can be set up (generally, a high body) to dial in just the amount of crimp one wants. However, the sliding sleeve will also postsize an out-of spec round--e.g., one that is too large in diameter because of an out-of-spec bullet, thick case walls, etc., etc.

The post-sizing will ensure the round will chamber OK (assuming no other issues like feeding in semiautos)--but doing so may impact case wall tension.

I've done .45ACP reloading with a Pro 1000 with the 3-die setup--and once it was set up "properly" and I had consistent, good-quality bullets it works just fine.

I greatly prefer the convenience of separate seating and crimping for load development--e.g., short runs (on a Lee turret) of 10 or 20 rounds with component changes--and a 4-die setup is much easier to set up properly.

So, I'd install the FCD as your 4th die and use it routinely. And, I would the dies up so that the #3 die body is "higher" but removes the flare, and the FCD is "high" with little crimp when the stem is also high--and then dial in the amount of crimp you want.

Build dummy rounds this way, and figure out how much crimp you need to "pass the push test." For now, if you get much post-sizing, that start checking the consistency of your bullets.

Jim H.

 

[rcmodel]

If so,just seat a test round,then see if you can push it inside the case using thumb pressure.Usually you can,and this is what the crimp die is for...so you can't.

You should never be able to push a bullet down with your thumb, unless you have thumbs of steel.

Case neck tension is what holds a bullet in place, and no amount of taper crimp can make up for poor neck tension.

If you can move a seated bullet, or spin it around in the case, you have more pressing problems to address with the sizing die, or expander plug.

Don't even worry about the crimp until you have fixed the neck tension problem first.

rc

 

[jal5]

I found a couple of good articles on chuckhawks.com describing the seating and crimping stages that were very helpful to me a newbi at reloading.
Joe

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Hi All,

Quick update:

I have some reloads that I inadvertently bought. I went to the gunstore the better part of a year ago, and bought a certain brand of ammo - only to find out that they do not manufacture reloads! The gunstore wouldn't take them back, and so I was stuck with them.

About half of them would not chamber, and some were too long overall to fit in magazines.

I had three left that I had kept; I safely disposed of the rest (and not out of a gun barrel! )

These three were both 1) too long for the magazine and 2) would not chamber due to case sizing considerations.

I ran 'em through the factory sizing die, and they chamber just fine now.

I do not know what powder charge is in these things, so I did not set the bullets back and will not be shooting them. I feel it was a good exercise though, and now I see what the die is meant to do.

I figure I'll use it if my reloads come out as being unable to chamber, or if I eventually decide to reload for precision. However, I figure it'll sit there doing nothing for the majority of the time if the bullets stay in place with the regular seating die.

**********

What number manual is Speer on? I ask because the one I have ordered is #10. Speer's website seems to have the link to their manual disabled, so I had to order from another vendor.

Since then I've heard references to a #12 manual.

Will it really make a whole lot of difference if I end up with an older one? Do powders and such change all that much?

The other one I have on order is a Hogdon's (sp?) that I believe is the most current.

Thanks again for all your help,

Josh <><

 

[AMBASSADOR]

FCD

Go to Lee Precision,they have videos of all thier products and how to adjust all thier dies.

 

[rfwobbly]

So, I'd install the FCD as your 4th die and use it routinely. And, I would the dies up so that the #3 die body is "higher" but removes the flare, and the FCD is "high" with little crimp when the stem is also high--and then dial in the amount of crimp you want.

I agree. If you have the separate FCD, then by all means use it. A good accurate crimp is necessary to good accuracy. So use it especially on target ammo.

Setting the FCD is easy. Raise the ram to the top of the stroke with a home-loaded round in place. Screw the FCD down using only the light force of 2 fingers until it comes into contact with the round. Lower the ram, and screw the FCD down 1/8 turn more. Add more crimp in 1/8 turn increments until the desired crimp is achieved.

You might measure the crimp dia on the case mouth of several factory rounds and try to match that dia. Or you can take the case mouth dia from your reloading manual and subtract about .003". Your crimp should not mark up the bullet.