Newbie needs help with .270 reloading!

[Eaglesview68]

As bad as I dont want this question to be lengthy, I dont think I have a choice. So, sorry ahead of time.
Ok, here is what I have. A Browning X Bolt in .270.
1.) New Win Brass
2.) 130 grain Nosler Partition sitting on top of 52 grains of IMR 4831. According to Hodgdon Manual, This is the lightest load they recomend and is only running about 2,822 fps.
3.) All brass has been FL sized and tumbled and the seating depth is 3.335 wich functions very smooth.
4.) Win primers
5.) All equipment RCBS except for my auto feeding digital powder dispensor wich is made by Hornady.
6.) My first 5 shot group I made for this rifle was with 49.5 grains of IMR 4831. Very good cloverleaf group at 100 yards.
7.) Ok, problem. Upon firing the 52 grain load, something didnt feel right. Very hard to explain but I looked at my bolt and chamber and smoke was rolling out of them like a darn muzzleloader!! I took the brass out, ( no, it was not hard to extract), and the primer was no longer down inside the pocket all the way, and the base area of the brass was covered in powder.
8.) The first thing I did was cleared the rifle and inspected the remaining 4 loads. Nothing was wrong with them. All the correct length and primers were seated correctly. I know this is a sign of too much pressure. But why? I've reloaded loads quit abit hotter than this for my Tikka and my Rem 700 with no issues. And this load is way under max?
9.) No sign of a flat primer.
10.) Upon further inspection, it looks to me like even the lighter 49.5 grain loads are forcing the primer up out of the pocket somewhat? Im soooo confused. Any info would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks, Bill

 

[rcmodel]

The only way the primer has room to back out of the case is if you pushed the case shoulder back too far during sizing and created artificial 'excess' headspace in the cases.

I'd start by backing the sizing die out and resize just enough you can feel the bolt starting to get snug when chambering a sized case.

rc

 

[merrill]

You are below starting loads according to my manual. Possible detonation rather than burn? Got me baffled. What RCMODEL said sounds good.

 

[Sunray]

Hi. Did you read the manual?
Quit using 49.5 grains. Below minimum loads can be as dangerous as above maximum loads. Causes weird pressures that can actually cause the powder to detonate vs burn. Mind you, 2.5 below isn't going to do anything. I suspect you may have loaded those cases father below minimum than you think. Pull 'em, if there are any left. Ditto for the 52 grain load.
3.335" OAL is far too long as well. OAL for a 130(doesn't matter who made it. You load for the bullet weight) is 3.230". And if you haven't already, you need to chamfer and deburr the case mouths. Makes bullet seating easier.
You must work up the load, starting with the minimum load and working up by half a grain, to the max load. Weigh every load on a scale(powder throwers are fine for when you have a load, but not when working it up.). Your rifle holds 4 rounds in its mag. That's a good and easy to keep track of number for the different loads. (I've been marking the factory box inserts with the loads, to keep 'em separate, for eons. Saves a lot of excess fuss.)
Then go shooting. Shoot slowly, off a solid bench, at 100 yard, for group only. Once you have a group(forget MOA or less groups with a hunting rifle. They won't do it, you don't need it to shoot that small and no game animal will care.) sight in. I'd be thinking 3.5 inches high at 100. That'll put you on target out to about 200 with no hold over.

 

[Eaglesview68]

I'll try inching the die back up. I started at 1/4 inch but the brass wouldnt chamber in this browning. So I did turn it down some more. Probably went too far. The 49.5 grains of IMR was what was in my Nosler book. As a matter of fact, it was listed as the most accurate powder tested. It's only running 2650 fps. It did however shoot a very good group at 49.5! Thanks guys. A fella will never stop learing I suppose.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Sounds like you're over working the brass creating the artificial headspace issue rcmodel mentioned. Back your sizing die off.

Also, primers backing out is not a sign of too much pressure. It's a sign of NOT ENOUGH pressure. Bump it up a bit (staying with the published data of course). As you get closer to max, you'll notice the primer isn't backing out any more.

 

[Eaglesview68]

Sunray. I'll try the seating depth change. Thanks. I'm second guessing myself on what I read on the minimum loads for the .270 with a 130 grain bullet. I usually use 57 to 59 grains of H4831 sc for my .270s but I had some IMR so I thought I'd give it a try. The OAL length has got me baffled? Why do they list the OAL at 3.340 if that is not correct. I actually thought I needed to get as close to the lands as possible. Am I being led astray?
Also, I chamfer and debur everything. I check things very close. I've got my other rifles shooting great so this is really bothering me. If I mis read that info, I'm going to be ticked at myself. Granted, I only made 5 of each load for grouping purpose so I can pull and disassemble.

 

[Eaglesview68]

Thanks ArkPaul. Ill work on my die settings.

 

[rcmodel]

Hodgdon only shows two 130 grain load for the .270 Win.

130 Barnes TSX
Seated 3.230"
52.0 Start load
57.0 Compressed Max load

130 grain Hornady SP
Seated 3.180"
51.0 Start Load
55.8 Max Load

The only two loads they show 3.340" OAL is with a 135 grain Sierra.
And a 160 grain Nosler Partition.
That one also shows 48.5 as the starting load.
And 52.9 Max.

Maybe you looked at the wrong data since you are using Nosler Partitions??


rc

 

[243winxb]

Win primers

Standard or mag? Use mag primer for starting loads with IMR 4831 or increase the powder charge or both. Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer

We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/#ixzz351ZK9h6Q

 

[Eaglesview68]

Dang it man. I'm more confused now than when I first posted. My 2014 Hodgdon Manual shows 15 different powders including IMR 4831 with a starting load of 52 grains at 2822fps. This is the load that messed up the primer. The 49.5 grain load was my bad. It was info out of the 4th edition Nosler reloading manual. It was for the 140 grain bullet though. Not the 130. I've made my first big mistake and it is noted. But, the 49.5 grains of IMR is not only listed, but it is the most accurate load Nosler tested. Granted it was for the 140 but still. The 130 grain minimum load is 52.5 so I screwed up. I cannot find in any of my books where it gives the OAL you guys are talking about. Mine all say 3.340. I need some new books!!!!!! What are you guys using? I hope I'm not being a pest. I really want to learn how to do this right.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I cannot find in any of my books where it gives the OAL you guys are talking about. Mine all say 3.340. I need some new books!!!!!!

Just go to Nosler's website and you can find the OAL. It lists it at 3.320".

http://www.nosler.com/270-winchester

 

[rcmodel]

3.340" is simply the SAAMI Maximum length for the .270 Win cartridge.
So it will fit in any standard length magazine.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/270 Winchester.pdf

It is NOT the suggested OAL for any bullet shape or weight.

If you look at the data for any specific bullet weight & type, the 'tested' OAL will be shown above the powder charge data for that specific bullet.

Probably nothing wrong with your books.

You are just looking at the wrong info in them.

rc

 

[Grumulkin]

Unlike what you might think, primers that have backed out of the primer pockets are not from high pressure, too much headspace, etc. It's caused by low pressure loads. The smoke rolling out of the chamber is caused by the same thing; the case has not expanded enough to seal the chamber because the pressure is too low.

High pressure loads cause excessively flattened primers, cratering, pierced primers and blown primers but cases don't come out with primers backed out.

Now for the "detonation" issue. The following are a few points I believe most would accept:

1. Smokeless powder is a "propellent" and not really an "explosive" like black powder. Being a propellent, smokeless powder burns optimally at a certain pressure. Stick it out on the ground and throw in a match and it will burn fast but won't explode. Put it in a pipe, seal the ends and light it and you will get an explosion because the pressure in the pipe promotes optimal burning.

2. It is well known that if a bullet is started abuting the lands or in the bore a little, pressure will be higher than if the bullet has a little jump to get started down the bore.

So called detonation and hang fires are caused by the same mechanism; low pressure loads. With detonation, there is enough propulsion to get the bullet started down the bore but not enough pressure for optimal powder burn. The bullet starts down the bore, starts to hang up and then pressure catches up as it were with the bullet almost stuck in the bore and very high pressure can result. A hangfire is the result of a similar mechanism; powder ignition starts but it takes more time for pressure to build until suddenly the burn starts in earnest and the bullet goes down the bore.

I've had no hangfires and only one episode of detonation in my reloading career. The detonation was in a 454 Casull. I was working up a load and started a little too low. I touched one off and pressure was so high it almost froze the cylinder. I increased the load and no more problem.

 

[rcmodel]

I agree, up to a point.

The point being, if there is no excess headspace due to the rifle, or the case shoulder being pushed back too far during sizing?

There is no room between the bolt face & the case head for the primer to back out of the case at low pressure.

rc

 

[Eaglesview68]

Guys, I really appreciate all the help and advice. I def learned alot today. I suppose that's part of the learning process. It's just with reloading, learning can be dangerous. I think I'll slow down some and read more. I was trying to start at minimum loads like the manuals say and work my way up but I simply messed up.:banghead: Thanks again. Bill

 

[rcmodel]

No problem!
And don't get down on yourself.

There is enough help here to get you over all the beginner mistakes.

If you don't get your feelings hurt too easily sometimes!

Which you seem not too of so far!

Just remember in the future when reading the load manuals.
The Devils in the tiny details for each bullet weight & shape.

rc

 

[gamestalker]

Well I can tell you one thing, it's gonna take a lot more IMR-4831 than what you can fit in that case with a 130 gr. bullet to blow the gun up. Max charge is already a compressed charge, so I recommend you work that charge up a little more aggressively and things will clean right up. I've seen a lot of low pressure high powered rifle loads do exactly what your describing, .270 included.

From a personal standpoint, although IMR4831 isn't my absolute favorite for .270, I have used a lot of it in that cartridge, and it's virtually impossible to reach catastrophic pressures with a 130 gr. bullet with it.

GS

 

[Eaglesview68]

Hey rcmodel. I'm pretty thick skinned. LOL. Thanks again.

 

[FLIGHT762]

O/P, many have given you good information. Your initial issue was using a too low powder charge that didn't expand the brass to seal the chamber, causing the smoking leak and the backed out primers due to low pressures.

I've been reloading for the .270 Winchester since the early 1970's. My go to load for many years, that has taken a number of Deer, Antelope and Hogs has been 57.0 grains of IMR 4831 using a 130 grain bullet (Sierra Game King, Nosler BT, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Partition and Speer Grand Slam). My first 270 I owned was a Mark X Mauser. I now still own a J C Higgins model 50 (FN action) 270 and a Tikka T-3. Both rifles like the 57.0 grain load. This is a near maximum load and needs to be properly worked up to be safe. I'm sure a powder charge of near 55 grains of IMR 4831 should give you good results.

I have a life long affection for the .270 Winchester. Post up some range results when you get your load figured out.

 

[Blue68f100]

You said yo had to lower the sizing die in order to get it to chamber. Take a marker and paint the bullet and brass then chamber and see where it's rubbing. Browning's are know to have tight chamber and may require a Small Base die. Some do and some don't. If it's rubbing at the base it will be needed. Like the others have said about the primers backing out due to head spacing is correct.

Be safe is the #1 thing. If you have questions don't be afraid to ask.

 

[nastynatesfish]

My buddy shoots the same only h4831 and his load was 57.5 gr with a 130 bullet. Remember under charged rounds are as dangerous as over max loads

 

[gamestalker]

Nastynatesfish, H4831 is not the same powder as IMR-4831. The 57.5 gr. H 4831 charge your buddy uses, is above max with IMR-4831. Maximum charges with IMR-4831 are about the minimum start charge with H4831, two different powders, two different charge tables and data.

GS

 

[Eaglesview68]

Thanks for the help!

Well, after lots of advice on here and some time at the bench, I'm happy to report that I have this Browning .270 shooting great! I tweaked the die as advized and changed the OAL on the loads. But most important, I went to 55.5 grains of IMR 4831 and have no issues with the primers. brass. or chambering. And the groups I got today at 100 yards are more than good enough for me. I wish I knew how to post pics. I shot a 5 round group that I can cover with a nickle. 3 of the shots were touching. I know most of you get that alot, but for this newbie, it's good to see. Thanks again for all the input and advice. Bill

 

[gamestalker]

That's awesome Bill! There is something to be learned from this experience, that being, trust the data. And you learned something about resizing bottle neck brass.

I know a guy, and have known quite a few over the years that express a great deal of apprehension with regard to the charge tables, they simply don't trust the data. Their apprehension has driven them to often restrict their loads to below mid table, and more often than not, below published start charges. This has made their reloading experiences miserable and very disappointing.

I'm glad we were able to help you solve the problem.

GS