Newbie with Pietta--questions a-plenty

[ABTOMAT]

Ahoy everyone, first serious post here. I'd been thinking about BP for a while, so I just traded for a Pietta .44 Colt repro. A few years old and never fired, but no box or stuff. Traded about $180 worth of knives, I know probably too much, but after you figure the time it takes to find a buyer for oddball stuff it's even. Now for the questions, if you'll forgive a hapless newbie.

1. I was told it was an 1861, but it's a .44 and has a brass trigger guard. I assume this is an 1860? Don't think Pietta made .44 '61s. It seems to be machined for a shoulder stock.

2. Proof mark has "PN" in a box, serial starts with P71xxx. 2001 date, right? Is this of the vintage when Pietta was supposed to making junk or quality? The level of finish looks great to me. Cylinder turns smoothly with not enough barrel clearence to see light through.

3. Couple of timing issues. First is that the locking bolt snaps home less than one width (it's own width) too soon. The very little fooling around the gun has enjoyed has already created impressions in the lead-in ramp. Normal? Not normal but OK? Problem?

4. Second is that by looking down the muzzle with a bright light, I can see a slight crescent of cylinder on the right side. As in, it looks to be traveling just a hair too far. Again, how big as issue is this?

5. If the above are problems, what work does the action need? I've never messed with wheelguns before, but I do machining and metalworking as a hobby.

6. Anything else I should check? Probably won't get around to shooting until the weather warms up.

Again, sorry for the rambling and thanks for any info you can provide. Just hope I didn't get reamed in this deal. Looks like a lovely gun. Should have fun getting used to the sight picture.

 

[ribbonstone]

#1: It's an 1860.
#2: wish it were that easy, but someplace on teh gun will be a stamp with two letters in it (not the PN proof). Those two letters are codes for the dates (and there wre some three letter stamps).
#3 and #4 are related...and if yo can see a bit of cylinder when squinting doen the barrel with the cylinder locked into thr eifre position, it does have alignment issues.

Will get back to you on the timing/alignment...will try to post a list of date codes.

This will be long:
Using Roman Numerials, starting with 1954 as 'X'.

X = 1954
XI = 1955
XII = 1956
XIII = 1957
XIV = 1958
XV = 1959
XVI = 1960
XVII = 1961
XVIII= 1962
XIX = 1963
XX = 1964
...continues without skipping until

XXVI = 1970

Then, for some reason not really explained, they switched to:
XX7 = 1971
XX8 = 1972
XX9 = 1973

Then back to:
XXX = 1974

Then it changes to a letter code. Should be simple, but they skipped various letters throughout the "A" code, then decided to skip OTHER letters through out the "B" code. Didn't want to make it too easy I guess.

AA=1975
AB=1976
AC=1977
AD=1978
AE=1979
AF=1980
AH=1981 (notice they skip AG)
AI=1982
AL=1983 (skipped AJ and AK)
AM=1984
AN=1985
AP=1986 (skipping AO)
AS=1987 (skiping AQ and AR)
AT=1988
AU=1989
AZ=1990 (skipping AV,AW,AX, and AY)

BA=1991
BB=1992
BC=1993
BD=1994
BF=1995 (skipping BE)
BH=1996 (skipping BG)
BI=1997
BL=1998 (skipping BJ and BK)
BM=1999
BN=2000
BP=2001 (skipping BO)
BS=2002
BT=2003
BU=2004

Do not know how the letter code continues...or why they selected the letters to skip.

There will be proof marks (usually two). One of them will be a PN marking...this is a black powder proof. Have had people show that to me and claim that their gun is nitro proofed (thinking PN is for Proof Nitro)..it is not...that's a black powder proof.

Will USUALLY be a maker's stamp...but not always. In the early years, was common to have whoever improrted the gun supply whatever stamps they wanted..Navy Arms, Replica Arms, Sile, CVA, etc. But it all boils down to a few makers. Common ones are: (aside from writting the company name out):

Pedersoli usually uses "DAP" or "dp".

Uberti usualy uses a "U" surroumded by an octogon outline...the octogon to represent a barrel outline.

Pietta Usually uses a "FAP" in a horizontal diamond outline.

Palmetto (who made a lot of Dixie Gun Works reproductions) uses a palm tree in a circle.

Armi San Palo uses a DGG..this is also found on EuroArms (as they are more or less the same maker now). OFten harde to figure out as they overlap the DGG.

Armi Sport will usually use a "AC" in a circle.


The Colt first and second generation guns were made in Italy as well...but only as rough parts, the fit and finish by Colt, so only Colt's marking are on the guns.

To add to the fustration, have run across black powder guns without any marks at all...some with Japanese symbols...and some with what is either Pakastani or Alien heiroglyphs.

------
The location of the marks changes over the years...and the good news is that the more recent Uberti guns (2004) are more subtle. Thee is also a tendency in newer guns to serial number mor5e parts..old Uberti's had one serial number (on the frame's bottom at the junction with the barrel)...now they have both the barrel and frame serial numbdered as well as the barrel wedge. The Born-on-date is stamped next to these serial numbers (smaller, but still following the pattern of letter codes).

 

[ABTOMAT]

Thanks, I fouled up on the date code. I had meant to say BP.

 

[ribbonstone]

Most of this is going to be theory rather than corrections.

In a perfect world, the center pin (arbor) would bottom out in the barrel's recess at exactly the time the two prongs on the frame seat in the barrel extention.

IF the center pin a a bit short (as most are) then driving the wedge in will "tweak" the barrel assembly "up". If too long, will tend to tweak the barrel down. IF the barrel extention/ two pins isn't dead flat to the frame, will tweak the barrel to the short side when the wedge is set canting the barrel left or right.

IF the bolt is fully seating in the cylinder notch at full cock, then the lockwork is goind it's job...if the barrel isn't aligned with the cylinder, would look to paragraph #1 above.

SO..drive the wedge out, remove the barrel, clean the contact areas fo any gunk..and then set the barrel back in place as hard as your hands can push it BUT WITHOUT PUTTING THE WEDGE IN. Now check your barrel/cylinder alingment.

That should give you some clues...if it is aligned and then becomes un-alingned with the wege in place, then would suspect the barrel extention/ locator pins are "off" in one dimention or another.

BTW: those wedges aren't supose to be driven in like tent pegs...no need to drive it like a nail...should be as tight as your fingers can push it, then a tap or two to set it in place (Ithat is if things are set up right).

 

[mec]

Pietta has been able to produce quality guns for a long time. their committment to this is somewhat questionable. There are many users who believe their quality has greatly increased over the last couple of years.

The real good news is that you can now get parts for the more common piettas- like your army from VTI gunparts.

I have an un-marked navy that shows the cylinder crescent as you describe. Even so, it will shoot into 3-4" at 25 yards.

 

[ABTOMAT]

I'll think about all that. My impression of the problem is a little different, though. Wouldn't the locking bolt engaging too soon be caused by one that's not long enough internally? ie: tripping off before the hammer/pawl has moved far enough?

Not much change in fitting the barrel. The wedge going in tight (light tap tight) might drive it a hair muzzle-high, but not enough to change the picture I'm seeing at the forcing cone appreciably. If the barrel itself is out of alignment, then (at the breech end, from the shooter's postion) it might be very slightly low and rotated to the left.

Or the locking bolt was fitted to the frame to time after too much cylinder rotation.

Any other ideas?

 

[ribbonstone]

Well...if the bolt is falling and locking teh cylinder up tightly (little rotational play) then you'd have to not only change the timing of the bolt's fall but would need to physically move the bolt's hole in the frame. The only place the bolt can fall into to lock the cylinder is the notch..making the bolt fall earlier or later won't change that.

IF the alignment is off to the left side (as if it hasn't rotated far enough to be in alignment) can check with the hammer down and bolt locked into a notch; if there is enough rotational play to align the chamber and barrel, then timing might straigthen it out...would use the hand to push the slop out of the system. If it's off becsue it's rotated PAST center alignment, then it's a lot harder to fix.

Get a true right angle square and check to see if that center pin (arbor) is 90degrees to the frame.
----
Have been farting around with these guns for about 30 years. Often pick up a "wreck" and put it back into shooting shape...some of the ways I do that mnight scare a professional gunsmith, but it seems to work and doesn't damage anything.

Picked up a nice Pocket Police (1972 made) that had the same missalignemnt problem you discuss. Was timed fine and locked up correctly, but the barrel just wasn't in line with the cylinders. Looking it over, found the center pin to be at a slight anlge to the frame...on a guess, someone hit something (or someone) hard with the gun...hitting the cylinder...and "tweaking" the whole thing out of line.

Colud measure the missalignemnt, so made a set of hard wood wedges (look like old style door stops) and by tapping those between the frame and center pin, got the center pin running straight to the frame.

Barrel would be in alignemnt until setting the wedge. The barrel extention was off plumb (probably from the same hit that bent the center pin)..and angled face...so as the wedge pulled it tight, it tweaked the barrel to the side.

the "right" way would have been to file BOTH flats (removing the pins) back to true flats...add metal to make up for the loss...set new pins...and fit. I cheated...Just filed the hole side back to flat, soldered a metal shim, then stoned the shim at a slight angle...when it drew up tight, was straight...then drileld new holes for the pins.

 

[ABTOMAT]

Right, that's what I'm saying. The issue of when the bolt is falling is seperate to the alignment. A longer tail on the bolt would delay it snapping home until the hammer had a chance to move farther. Not changing the alignment. The lockup is tight and it rotates past alignment, so no easy fix there.

I'll have a look at the pin with a guage square and see how it looks.

Just from a little cleaning and deburring I've managed to improve both issues slightly, but not eliminate.

 

[ribbonstone]

Hopfully it's alignment as that can be corrected more easily.

HAve widened the bolt slot and the bolt..would be nice to start with an oversized bolt rather than adding metal (the spring part doesn't take well to excessive heating)....then once wider and functioning correctly (but too wide to pop into the cylinder's notch), stoned the bolt one-sidely until it corrected the alignement and got the bolt to lock into the notch.

Worst place for the bolt to "pop up" is ON the leading edge of the cylinder notch. Cylinders are soft...bolt is hard...will tend to peen the edge of the notch. With a peened edge, it becomes narrower and the bolt eventually won't fully snap in.

Although it puts a bright mark at each notch, better if they pop up someplace on the little "ramp" leading down to each notch and rides the ramp down.

 

[Old Dragoon]

FYI Armi San Paolo changed their name to Euroarms when the factory moved from San Paolo Italy to where they are presently. Both display the DGG which is the initials of the original owners of the company.

I love my Euroarms '58 Remington Old Model Army(they call it a NMA, but it is based on an original 1861 Rem. from the production numbers 1-3,000 in a total production of 6,000., The first 3,000 used the Remington-Beals frame. Somewhere around the 3,000 number the frame changed to the NMA we know today with the exposed bbl threads.

 

[ABTOMAT]

After examination, the pin appears straight. The mating surfaces of the barrel extension, however, is slightly short on one side. I did some very gentle stoning on the high spot and it's brought barrel alignment closer to where it should be. Didn't bring it all the way down since I'm just experimenting for now. One chamber is in perfect alignment, a couple are close, and the other three are a little better than they were before. Guess those Italian cylinders leave a little to be desired. I think I'll wait to see how it shoots before trying major surgery.

How could the timing deal with the bolt be related to the alignment? The bolt is snapping up about halfway along each ramp. You'd have to have the barrel bent sideways to throw it off that far. It's already starting change the surface and I can picture it complete beating down a ramp flush with the notch given enough time. I mean, it's not bad compared to some stories I found today, but it's not in perfect time.

 

[ribbonstone]

Once the bolt locks into the notch in the cylinder, that's the only spot that it can lock in...so if the action is working right, timing and bolt locking as it should, if the cylinder isn't in alignement with the barrel you either (a) move the barrel to align with the cylinder or (B) move the bolt AND the frame opening it pops in and out of to align the cylinder to the barrel.

As you're finding out, it seems you can get it in line by working on how the barrel seats. go slow..stop and think about things before doing anything...and when you do decide, it's a matter os baby-steps with lots of checks between steps.

WHERE the bolt falls on the cylinder and then slides down to the notch does make a differnce on these soft cylinders. If it falls so that it strikes the leading edge of the notch, will peen that area. If it falls even 1/16th of an inch early, all it does is put a little "pimple" on the cylinder from the bolt's strike. (When the bolt first pop's up, the spring is moving it pretty fast..so it impacts hard...and that's not something you want on a sharp edge that should stay sharp edged.)

With the uneven mating surfaces...try paper shims as tests...will get an understanding of which side and how much needs to be gochanged to get the desired effect.