NFA Devices for Home Defense (article)

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chopinbloc

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Another article I wrote. The photos are mine as well. I'm just learning Photoshop so I'd be grateful for any criticism you care to offer on both the photos and the writing. The blog is not mine.


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The problem with opinions is that people who really don’t have any clue what they’re talking about are happy to offer one. They’ll just repeat any old garbage that they’ve heard on a subject, no matter how ridiculous and unfounded. It probably has a lot to do with universal human foibles and a psychologist could go into great detail about what causes people to do that. Ask a truck driver what he thinks about nuclear power, though, and he’ll expound at great length about the virtues of CANDU style generating facilities and the political feasibility of certifying a LFTR generating station, considering the influence that GE lobbyists have on the NRC. The same problem happens when the topic of home defense guns is discussed. Everybody fancies themselves an attorney or a marine-delta-SEAL-reconsniper instructor. Mention the use of a registered NFA device for defense and they start tearing their garments and foaming at the mouth. Why would someone want to use a registered NFA device in home defense anyway, though? Things like silencers and SBRs are just range toys, right?

The rest is here, if you're interested.
 
You use a lot of ridicule in your argument to weaken the credibility of people who raise jury perception as an issue of concern. Not all of those people are worthy of being so ridiculed. Our own Dr. Glenn Meyer (GEM here at THR) is one of those persons and he has studied and written on that topic with authority.


Perhaps your points are very valid but your tone does not present you well.
 
Nice article, very well laid out with testing and evidence.

But what kind of truck driver are you talking about in your excerpt? :uhoh: That seems about as realistic as an urban youth in Michigan extolling the benefits of fluted titanium carbide end mill bits.
 
Sam1911, actual doctors, attorneys, and other real experts are obviously far more qualified to form an opinion than I am. I consider myself more qualified to offer an opinion than most of the people parroting these opinions without applying any critical thinking, though. There is some disagreement on the point because both sides have some merit. This article is intended as entertaining persuasive writing, though. As such, I did not intend to fairly lay out the case for both sides, but to persuade the audience.

While I do understand the concerns about using "scary" tools, the problem of surviving the encounter takes precedence. It helps that it would be very difficult to go to prison for shooting someone in your own home in Arizona.
 
Thermactor, my uncle was a truck driver and he had access to Google, a mobile hotspot, and lots of free time on mandatory rest periods. Truck drivers can actually develop remarkable competency in subjects with which they have no formal training, if they are so inclined. Or a truck driver could have heard LFTR mentioned on Coast to Coast and now fancies himself an expert.
 
Sam1911, actual doctors, attorneys, and other real experts are obviously far more qualified to form an opinion than I am.
Did you point that out in your article? Did you establish your own credentials as an interested amateur, and make sure that people who might take your advice understand that you've done no actual research into the subject you're writing about?

I consider myself more qualified to offer an opinion than most of the people parroting these opinions without applying any critical thinking, though.
Based on what? Why do you think that other interested amateurs do not apply critical thinking? Especially considering that the one person I know of who applied scientific principles to a study of the subject came to a different conclusion than you did? Wouldn't it be fair to say, then, that people who disagree with you probably do so for reasons just as valid (and in some cases, far more so) than your own?

There is some disagreement on the point because both sides have some merit.
That could be said of any topic ever debated. But did you say so when giving your own advice?

This article is intended as entertaining persuasive writing, though. As such, I did not intend to fairly lay out the case for both sides, but to persuade the audience.
Perhaps some kind of disclaimer to that effect would be worthwhile. Something that lets people know that the decision they're making does have potentially life-altering legal implications and that if they take your advice, they should understand that your advice is countered by statistical evidence to the contrary and is based merely on your own observations and opinions -- mostly of the practical benefits, while glibly dismissing any legal consequences.

I mean, after all...if we're going to look at Dr. Meyer's work and your writing here, and we're going to say that one of the two represents "people who don't have a clue what they're talking about," and those who " breathlessly exclaim" whatever they think is, or should be, true ... well, look, I don't want to insult you and I agree with many of your points, but it is irresponsible to publish something as flippant as this about such a serious topic.
 
Your article fails to supply me with the information I need for weighing the purchase of a silencer.

Your opening paragraph has little to do with your topic and causes me to lose interest. What does a truck driver think about nuclear power have to do with use of NFA weapons?

Your statement “Most silencers add considerable length to your rifle, though. They’ll turn a handy little 16” carbine into an unwieldy pole” is subjective. How long are silencers and how much longer do they make a rifle? What other long guns do they compare to length such as a short barrel shotgun?

How much does a silencer reduce the noise of a gunshot? You mention that a SBR and silencer costs $2,000.00. What am I getting for 2 grand? Cabelas has Stevens Model 350 short barrel shotgun on sale for $199.99. Why should I spend 10 times that amount for a home defense gun? What about a silenced shotgun?

What was the Gary Fadden incident? I have never heard of it. A one or two line description of the events leading to why he shot a biker would help explain why it is relevant to your topic.
 
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Gary Fadden Incident (*Click*)

Short story : In 1984 before the wide spread use of cell phones two armed outlaw bikers chased an H&K employee and his fiancée for 22 miles before he finally ended up getting cornered at his place of employment and he pulled out a Ruger AC556 full auto carbine that he had for T&E and blasts one of the guys in a hail of brass as he came at him with two knives.

Written by Massad Ayoob and in one of his books (I forget which one).
 
If you have a SBR and suppressor and feel that's the best defensive combo, use em. If the prosecutor is after you the gun isn't going to matter. You're going to need a good lawyer and an expert witness.
 
For home defense, I would have no problem using an NFA weapon (although probably not a machine gun, even if I had one). In point of fact, my primary is a 7.5" AR. As pointed out, HD scenarios have to be pretty darn sketchy to even end up in court in most states.

SD in public? Whole 'nother ball game. I absolutely would not carry an SBS, SBR'd PDW, suppressed weapon or machine pistol/subgun. Defense in public is not nearly as cut and dry as in the home, and it is not only possible, but probable that your case will end up in front of a grand jury..........and it certainly could go to trial. Wouldn't be too hard to paint a person who carries an impractical weapon as someone who was looking for a fight. And that includes more than just NFA stuff; I wouldn't wanna be explaining why I was carrying a Five-seveN with 30 round mag in it and 3 or 4 spares, either. Regarding public SD, should you ever have to face it, the best possible impression for you to give is humble and pragmatic-which definitely includes being practical about your weapon choice.
 
I personally have no problem with using a legally owned NFA device in self defense, if I had one, the combination of short barrel and silencer would make such a weapon very handy in the confines of a house.

As far as the Gary Fadden incident is concerned, it was thirty years ago, different rules and fully automatic weapons were a lot easier to come by, and Fadden worked for H&K.

I'll also point out, he didn't have the gun with him for self defense, he had it for evaluation for he company he worked for. He used it because it was what was available.

I would not choose a fully automatic weapon for self defense if other weapons were available, but needs must when the devil drives.

Some prosecutors are simply insane, and hate guns and self defense enough to prosecute "good" shoots anyway. Look at the recent George Zimmerman case. No way that should ever been brought to trial, and any sane person looking at the facts knows it.

Experts come in all flavors and competencies. Some people with a lot of education and degrees are dumb as a brick.
 
If I had any NFA guns or items I'd use them to defend my home if need be. What would be the use in having them otherwise?

Wouldn't ever leave my property with it though. Self defense on your property seems to be viewed by LE and the courts as much more clear cut and in black and white due to the fact that they have to trespass, jump over fences and break in after kicking in doors, breaking windows or jimming locks. In short they're coming to you.

Read this awhile back and it seems to apply. The vast majority of the full auto fire was suppressive fire and to disable the second stolen vehicle. The one burglar the Gunstore owner did kill was with a semi-AR through the windshield as he tried to run him down. The 3 mags with the S&W Model 76 sub-gun were into the second car or aimed high.

It did go to the Grand Jury though.

High Volume Shootout: The Harry Beckwith Incident (*Click*)
 
"As far as the Gary Fadden incident is concerned, it was thirty years ago, different rules and fully automatic weapons were a lot easier to come by, and Fadden worked for H&K."

'Black rifles' weren't nearly so acceptable back then, either. It sure seems like more people claim to use suppressed/shortened guns for defense, these days (only an idiot would use a select fire heirloom for defense) so there should be some useful recent case study either already, or soon to come.

Attitudes are changing too quickly for us to rely on data from even ten years ago, to be honest. Besides, the System will nail you for a muzzle loader sabot, so what are we really saving ourselves by Fudding up for the Squares? Luckily, reality somewhat dictates that the more ridiculous tacticoolery is unsuitable for defense, so we are automatically moderated.

What I want to know, is if there's ever been a defensive use of the most deadly of completely unregulated weaponry; the flame thrower :D

TCB
 
Thermactor, my uncle was a truck driver and he had access to Google, a mobile hotspot, and lots of free time on mandatory rest periods. Truck drivers can actually develop remarkable competency in subjects with which they have no formal training, if they are so inclined. Or a truck driver could have heard LFTR mentioned on Coast to Coast and now fancies himself an expert.
If you want an honest opinion, it is not very persuasive. It is not very entertaining. The tone is very off putting.

I take advice from experts in whatever particular field I am seeking advice from. Experts are rarely as condescending as that article. Experts rarely need to begin with a flurry of insults. Experts do need to do this, because their knowledge speaks for themselves. I don't need to know how wrong someone else is, just convenience me you are right.

Your article failed to do that because it did not bring about any confidence in you. You ask for an honest opinion and that is the truth of it. Good luck with you future endeavors
 
Ok, pics. I'm no photographer, what I see is too much light creating deep shadows on a light background which distorts what the weapon looks like. Lot's of light is good, but it can be softer to bring out more detail.

Article - the long discourse on the 5.56 apologizing for it being inadequate doesn't sell. The Navy already fixed the problem anyway, they use 77gr OTM loads with flash suppressant powder known as the Mk262 round which is in high demand in the service. Instead of dancing around with gel blocks about how the older rounds work, just move on to the cure. Don't shoot 55/62 gr from 10.5" barrels, save it for practice. Load up with what the real shooters use, 77gr OTM.

Home defense or self defense in public is already rife with misconceptions and the whole legal aspect is problematic. Goes to why so many are now sidestepping the entire problem with the AR pistol - it's not NFA and you can transport and use it to a much larger degree. Ignoring that and the huge increase in sales of pistols since the advent of the SIG Brace makes the point of the article come off as a SBR sales pitch.

An honest comparison of what the AR pistol does would show that - for the $200 savings and registration of a firearm, you don't have to ask the ATF for permission to cross a state line, you may not have to unload and case the pistol in the trunk during transport, and if it was seen in an Open Carry state few would have legal reason to complain, like MO.

As for the reputed 30 year old incident, the employee armed with an AR pistol in the car might not have had to flee. Armed up front with an AR pistol the entire incident may have been forestalled.

Seems the SBR really isn't all that - the only difference between it and a pistol is the lack of a flat vertical surface to shoulder. It's a PDW, less than 200m application, and largely less than 50 FEET in use by those issued per MOS in security activities.

I see a lot of apologetics for SBR's lately in the wake of increased pistol builds and sales. Many stamp owners also own pistols - to cross state lines and carry as a truck gun. Seems redundant, and those on a budget - which is the OTHER 50% of gun owners - deserve to have the options fully explained. '

This would have worked better as an AR pistol article for SD and home defense, with the addition of the logical progression to suppressor ownership. That would couch the article in acceptable legal terms instead of abusing readers for not being smart enough to know they can.
 
Interesting you mention that. I'm writing an article on AR and AK pistols right now. I wanted to focus on NFA devices for that article. It was already 2,000 words.

Mk262 uses the Sierra 77 gr MatchKing. The first test I chose to demonstrate the potential of short barreled .223/5.56mm was the new Sierra 77gr Tipped MatchKing. I also included a test of less than ideal ammunition. If you think it merits further discussion, I could write an article discussing the performance of various .223/5.56mm loads from a short barrel.
 
Why would someone want to use a registered NFA device in home defense anyway, though? Things like silencers and SBRs are just range toys, right?

NFA Devices covers a lot of items.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#nfa-firearms

Seems to me that suppressors for home defense are the fastest growing segment of NFA devices being used in a defense scenario for the average person. Concerns about hearing loss if a weapon is discharged in a home seems to come up often in discussions whether it's from a handgun or rifle and more and more people are not concerned about any legal ramifications from a legally owned device.

Thanks for the article. I do get it on my Facebook timeline.
 
This Fadden case, which is the first I've heard of it, is a rather disheartening example to use.

Sure the guy got off, but that's after the legal system ruined him and went to the poor house. It also seems the bullet(s)? to the back hurt him more than the MG. The MG was just the icing on the cake for the prosecutor.

Apperantly, this character used what he had available to him at the moment, which is fine by me. I would assume that most NFA guys probably don't have strictly NFA stuff in their collection, leaving them with other options. Why put yourself in the crosshairs of an overzealous career bearucrat trying to make a name for themselves, by using an item that could paint you as something your not?

I don't know how many SD shootings involving NFA stuff happens with regular non-LEO, non-MIL citizens, but it's probably very low. I don't think that water has been thoroughly tested enough for everyone to jump in. Of course facts and emotions are two different things, and ultimately your fate lies initially with the police, then the prosecutor.

Lastly, hearing loss be damned, I'd rather suffer tinnitus than be $500,000 in debt to some lawyer.
 
It did go to the Grand Jury though.

High Volume Shootout: The Harry Beckwith Incident (*Click*)

Legal aspects aside, this is s perfect example of what not to do. Beckwith lucked out, plain and simple. There were a thousand ways and 1000:1 odds that this could have ended much differently and much more tragically. Regardless of how well armed you are, it is downright stupid to take on seven armed thugs if you have a choice to not do so-especially when property damage and theft are the crimes you'd be preventing. Yeah, one could argue that the stolen guns would end up being used to cause death, but we all know that argument doesn't really hold water.

That man is no hero in my book; just a very lucky idiot.
 
Goes to why so many are now sidestepping the entire problem with the AR pistol - it's not NFA and you can transport and use it to a much larger degree. Ignoring that and the huge increase in sales of pistols since the advent of the SIG Brace makes the point of the article come off as a SBR sales pitch.

Now the pistol & SIG brace aspect is moot: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=771196
 
All that letter does is put a finer point on the issue. If you build a PISTOL with a Sig brace and shoulder it, you are not breaking any laws. If you build a short barreled rifle with the intent of skirting the NFA, it is not legal.
 
If you build a PISTOL with a Sig brace and shoulder it, you are not breaking any laws.
Not quite. If you build a pistol and use a SIG brace to shoulder it, you're "redesigning" (through use) that as a stock and you've created a Title II "Firearm."

Read it carefully, this isn't a question any more.

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
 
Not a question anymore my foot; the ATF just did a double backflip reversal in order to arrive at this current ruling, which is itself likely a gross overreach. SIG beat them on silencers, and they'll beat them on this, too. Consider the interim a 'stay' period on the braces, and nothing more.

TCB
 
Nope. You can't incorrectly shoot a handgun. A handgun is a gun designed to be fired with one hand but if you shoot it with two hands or put it on your shoulder, hip, or face, it doesn't stop being a handgun.
 
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