NFA/Dual Residency/Question

[I LIKE IT!]

Hi quick one,

If dual resident say California(living/working) and Arizona(residency only) is it possible for a NFA transaction to occure in viable state(Arizona).

Do I have to be planted in Arizona 100% for a transfer. Legal experts welcome, this is just a theoretical. Thank you.

 

[Chipperman]

If you are legal to buy other guns in AZ, you should be legal for NFA also.
Just don't bring them into CA.

 

[Kharn]

I've heard of people in your same situation dealing with the NFA branch and having to include a cover letter explaining that the gun will be kept in AZ but their mailing address is CA (as the AZ property was remote and did not have mail service). Call the NFA branch and speak to your examiner about it if you become more serious about it, they'll be able to tell you the specific language you need to have in the letter.

The CLEO signature will have to be from the AZ CLEO, not your CA CLEO.

Kharn

 

[wdlsguy]

If you are legal to buy a handgun in AZ, you are legal to make/buy NFA in AZ.

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b12

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Called the NFA branch and am still waiting a reply.

From the sound of the ATF quote above(thank you) it seems I would have to be residing in AZ while making the transaction.

That more or less anwsers it I think(though that sucks), I'll wait and see what response I get from an S. Robertson at the NFA branch.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Called the NFA branch and am still waiting a reply.

From the sound of the ATF quote above(thank you) it seems I would have to be residing in AZ while making the transaction.

That more or less anwsers it I think(though that sucks), I'll wait and see what response I get from an S. Robertson at the NFA branch.

"It seems"? Yeah, "it seems" crystal clear. So why does that suck? As long as we have/allow gun purchase laws based on place of residence, doesn't it "seem" completely logical that if you're going to claim the right to buy a gun in Arizona based on residency that you might just kinda sorta oughta like be a resident there when you make the purchase?

Besides, what would be the point of having a machine gun (or whatever NFA toy you have in mind) delivered to AZ when you're not there to take possession?

 

[Kharn]

CA does not allow (the majority of?) NFA weapons.

Kharn

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Only thing that comes off confusing or not "crsytal" is that it describes handguns which I know bear common lingo with NFA toys yet it's not stated as such.

It sucks because you and I both(i would hope) know that it shouldn't be this way.

Oh and by the way plan (A) was and apparently still is to move back to state that I've lived in(AZ) and purchased toys from in the past. Would of saved me alot of time if said was possible.

No matter, they're(MP5,M4LE,Supp.) are all just waiting on me to pull anchor and leave California. It's something I've been working on for 3-4 years a dream you could say. I'm not new to firearms at all heck a served 4 years in the corps and have a few of my "kids" as I like to call em stored in AZ.

Still waiting on word from the horses mouth, would leave for AZ as soon as I save least 15K or find a job in Yuma area that could support me.

Ahhh good times, just waiting...waiting.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Ok, I just got off the phone with a Scott Robertson at NFA branch explaining to me that this is in fact possible and can be done.

I called agian to double check and agian he explained to me that it could be done. I explained to him my situation in California and he said no problem. I asked for some kind of verification and he said to write him a letter stating the question/situation and that he'd give appropriate response.

I'm abit cautious though....hmm

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Oh and by the way plan (A) was and apparently still is to move back to state that I've lived in(AZ) and purchased toys from in the past. Would of saved me alot of time if said was possible.

No matter, they're(MP5,M4LE,Supp.) are all just waiting on me to pull anchor and leave California. It's something I've been working on for 3-4 years a dream you could say. I'm not new to firearms at all heck a served 4 years in the corps and have a few of my "kids" as I like to call em stored in AZ.

Still waiting on word from the horses mouth, would leave for AZ as soon as I save least 15K or find a job in Yuma area that could support me.

Ahhh good times, just waiting...waiting.

Well, you have me thoroughly confused. The thread title specifically mentioned dual residency. What you are describing in your subsequent posts makes it sound like you do not, in fact, have a second residence in AZ ... in which case, there can be no discussion of dual residency.

IF you own (or, I suppose, rent for extended periods of time) a residence in AZ, then for the periods of time you "reside" in AZ you get to buy firearms under whatever rules apply to residents of Arizona. The BATFE FAQ is clear on this.

Dual residency does not require that you have a job in AZ. You can live and work in CA and just maintain a vacation cabin somewhere in AZ and that qualifies you for the dual residency provisions -- as long as you actually spend some time "residing" in the second residence.

What is the actual question you asked the BATFE?

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Basically if living and working in california while having a residency in arizona would prohibit me from making an nfa transaction in Arizona.

Sending letter out today for verification, spoke with scott robertson at nfa branch if you would like to verify yourself.

I just need there "official" blessing now and then it's on.

 

[Sam Adams]

The CLEO signature will have to be from the AZ CLEO, not your CA CLEO.

FYI, you don't need a CLEO signature if a Trust or a corporation you formed were to take possession. There are, needless to say, a bunch of other rules that need to be followed, so if one is going to go that route I would strongly recommend consulting an attorney who specializes in that area.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Basically if living and working in california while having a residency in arizona would prohibit me from making an nfa transaction in Arizona.

You still have not made your situation clear. Do you still own a house in Arizona, and if so do you spend any part of the year "residing" in it? If so, you have dual residency. If not ... you don't.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Good point, I asked mr. robertson at the nfa branch what constitues residency in the eyes of the ATF, his response was oddly vague "we don't really have a policy" which is precisely why I've sent them a letter to get a response in further written detail.

What period of time spent at any given place/state is considered residency?

Very good question aguila blanca(white eagle) very good question. I'll be sure to call and ask tommorrow.

Stay tuned.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

hmm...according to

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

parts of (B11)

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.

---Just to play devils advocate(I know better)---I can be "present" at either location at anytime and I can have the intention of making both my "home".

An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

---So do 90 days continuously(3 months) apply to citizens? revision needed here I think.(agian playing devils advocate)


(B12)

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

---Ok so do the 90 days for aliens apply to citizens if so fine.

---If not, what are "certain periods of the year" It seems clear but playing the devils advocate agian they really should iron out the language.

I know better than to do anything stupid but a revision is seriously needed.

When a fed at the NFA branch can't give me a black and white anwser and the atfs own faq website fails to clarify the "gray" spots or missing language(i.e. citizen,firearms other than handguns) somethings wrong or at minimal deceptive.

I apologize to anyone here who feels I've wasted they're time.

Looks like this ones going to you aguila, I'll await response from the feds.

Fifth Fleet Out.

 

[Kharn]

90 days does not apply to citizens.

Kharn

 

[Telperion]

27 CFR 478.11 makes the definition of residency pretty clear.

One other note: the NFA examiners are bureaucrats, not lawyers, and certainly not YOUR lawyer. Always do your own research, or talk to a lawyer.

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Hey Telperion thanks for that bit of information, *omitted* never mind(doh)

I find example 2 particularly interesting.

So say X is California and Y is Arizona, does this mean i must spend all weekends "or"(assuming it's optional) all the months of summer given that year?

Are you a lawyer? very interesting, though I'll admit not something I'd care to do if necessary untill I can make a permanent move.

Thank you.

 

[Telperion]

It's just an example. When you are actually residing in Arizona, you are a resident of Arizona, and likewise for California.

I'm not a lawyer; I made the remark about the NFA examiners because should they make a mistake, even in writing, that leads you to break the law, you're still SOL.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Ok let me get this straight, on weekdays A(individual) lives in X(California) and on weekends in Y(Arizona) does this mean A(individual) resides in each state on those days?

Assumeing some one was willing to do this how if at all is it possible to verify that A(the individual) is resideing(if true) as such?

I wonder what the NFA has to say about this, can't wait to ask tommorrow.

Thanks.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I find example 2 particularly interesting.

So say X is California and Y is Arizona, does this mean i must spend all weekends "or"(assuming it's optional) all the months of summer given that year?

Those are examples. The key point is that you are a resident of state 'Y' while you are "residing" in state 'Y.' IANAL but I am quite certain that it does not have to be ALL summer long, EVERY year, or EVERY weekend of the year. I think the key point is that you have to maintain the second residence as YOUR residence. In other words, a vacation home ... even if it's only a mobile home or a rustic cabin. Going to AZ and staying in a hotel for several weekends out of the year doesn't suggest residency. Note that the Example number 2 says the subject "maintains a home" in state 'X' and in state 'Y.' It also says that mere ownership does not constitute residency.

You still haven't said whether or not you still own a house in AZ. If so, and if it still has your stuff in it, and you go there periodically, you should be good to go. On the other hand, if you took a long-term job in CA and rented your house in AZ to some third party -- then you are not "maintaining a residence" in AZ because you are not free to go there at any time of your choice.

If you don't still own a house in AZ at all, I don't see how you can claim dual residency unless you enter into a long-term lease for a small house or apartment in AZ just to establish a second home.

 

[Kharn]

I like it!:
Utility bills are usually seen as proof of residence, so if you have electricity or propane/diesel/other fuel (whatever might run your generator if you're really, really remote) delivered to the property that should suffice.

The ATF isnt the hurdle as much as the CLEO signature, you have to convince the county sheriff that you really do live there. Of course, a trust formed in AZ would not require that signature.

Kharn

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Ok just to clarify, I spoke with a Eddie Atkins about...

Living and working in California but maintaining(paying-utilities and my pocessions) a long lease apartment over periodical weekends(visits) in Arizona.

I spoke to him about the language in 27 CFR 478.11 and he said he would give me a call back, he did and said he had spoken with someone else and siad the only problem might be aquiring some sort of state I.D. to which I replied wouldn't be difficult i.e. drivers license(I have one, though I'd need to update address thus getting a new one.

I brought to him my concern of the fingerprint cards asking for work address and what I should put down if anything at all, he said to put my address and the only thing neccessary would be to explain to the CLEO my situtation.

So far I've been getting "okays", I'll wait and see what the letter says once it arrives.