Nga x8 in development!!!

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Precision

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Just when I thought that Next Generation Arms couldn't make a more ergonomic rifle than the X7, they do it anyway. All the information we know about the design is right here: http://nga.squarespace.com/

I LOVE the design idea! I always get excited when I see innovation in the defense industry, but this one takes the cake! I've always been a HUGE fan of the X7 and all it has to offer, and it looks like it's getting a truly deserved upgrade. Check out the X7 if you have time: http://nga.squarespace.com/x7-tour/
 
title fail

Wow, for some reason the title to my thread looks like I'm an illiterate moron. It should read, "NGA X8 IN DEVELOPMENT!!!" My apologies.
 
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All the information we know about the design is right here: http://nga.squarespace.com/

NGA are BS artists and its still just a parts gun.

Its worth noting that they have dropped their whole "our rifle is coated with sooper dooper secret ceramic" schtik and now admit to it just being ceracoated. They also seem to have removed nearly all of their unbelievable claims from their website and the long rambling posts in which the owner claims that only his crack team of highly trained professions can properly assemble an AR15....presumably because they own the worlds only functioning torque wrench or something.:rolleyes:



I LOVE the design idea! I always get excited when I see innovation in the defense industry, but this one takes the cake!

Calm thyself my son. Its not exactly innovation since monolithic uppers have been around for years.
 
Calm thyself my son. Its not exactly innovation since monolithic uppers have been around for years.

According to their own website, it's not a monolithic upper, but it's stronger than one, which is good because of all the times we hear about monolithic uppers snapping in half. :scrutiny:
 
Hi all. A coworker at NGA mentioned this thread and I thought you all might like the chance for a candid Q&A on Next Generation Arms, the X7 and maybe some discussion about the upcoming X8.

I'm the principal designer of the X7 and X8 and am a third of the owner team, so there shouldn't be anything asked that can't be answered, although I'm hoping not to get dumped on too bad all at once.
 
Hi all. A coworker at NGA mentioned this thread and I thought you all might like the chance for a candid Q&A on Next Generation Arms, the X7 and maybe some discussion about the upcoming X8.

I'm the principal designer of the X7 and X8 and am a third of the owner team, so there shouldn't be anything asked that can't be answered, although I'm hoping not to get dumped on too bad all at once.
YES! Thank you sir, please tell us everything you can about the X8. I for one am very excited, despite the opinions of others. My main question is how reliable is the rifle? Also, if you have any info on accuracy, weight, and recoil, those would of course be appreciated as well!
 
NGA are BS artists and its still just a parts gun.

Its worth noting that they have dropped their whole "our rifle is coated with sooper dooper secret ceramic" schtik and now admit to it just being ceracoated. They also seem to have removed nearly all of their unbelievable claims from their website and the long rambling posts in which the owner claims that only his crack team of highly trained professions can properly assemble an AR15....presumably because they own the worlds only functioning torque wrench or something.

BS artists? I'll admit there was BS around here in the past but artists? Now that's going too far!

Parts gun? I probably shouldn't respond to this since it may just be standard troll-bait, but here goes...

The X7 has the following NGA-made components: LR and half of the parts kit, forend and its parts kit, muzzle device, gas block, optional rails, and we do finish machining of the UR and barrel. We don't make the barrel, BCG, charging handle, gas tube, most of the LR extension kit, trigger group or plastic furniture. Springs and hardware are a mix. Some are made to our spec and some are std.

The X8 is scheduled for introduction at the very end of the year. All of its components have been designed and NGA will produce everything except barrel, trigger group, furniture and small hardware.

Some of the new stuff on the X8:

Lower receiver and extension are machined from a monolithic billet.

Upper receiver and forend are also machined from a single billet.

The fire control group puts Geissele components in a unique frame along with integrated safety cylinder and is dropped into the lower as a unit. This allows trigger module replacement without having to drive out pins. We'll discuss this further later if there's any interest.

All controls are mirrored left and right with identical placement, function and appearance, except the safety lever on the trigger finger side is short or omitted by preference. The new charge handle can be unlatched from either left or right. We'll get into all of this more later if there's any interest.

My intent here is to dispute the "parts gun" label. I will not say that these things are amazing, better than anything else or particularly innovative, although that's the goal of course.

Regarding ceramic coating... I think this topic was handled poorly by NGA in the past. Some of the claims were BS imo and deserved lots of criticism. We still coat most everything with some type of Cerakote because it is beneficial. It isn't magic and has some drawbacks but the +'s outweigh the -'s. It's actually a long topic and we still consider the whole process proprietary so I won't be telling anyone how we do what. I'll be interested to see how much you all know already about Cerakote.

Finally, regarding the slam against our "long-winded claim" that only we know how to assemble an AR15 and you don't, well who's being the BS artist now? All I said was there's a lot more to it than "most" people are willing or able to do properly and especially so regarding assembly of the X7. In fact, part of the reason for the X8 is simplification of assembly while improving precision at the same time.

Does that help start the conversation?
 
Precision -

One of the things I've learned from hard experience is to stay excited about life but to be 100% skeptical about all new stuff and most old stuff too for that matter. You may have noticed that NGA has settled down to a hopefully more mature level in the past two years. I'm glad you're excited about the X8, really, but you might think twice about how excited you should be. The AR15 is a very mature product. You can get good ones that will be nearly 100% reliable, hit everything you aim at and won't take a huge amount of effort to keep running from at least a dozen decent mfg's for around $1500 and you can spend less or quite a bit more without earth-shaking differences in performance.

The X8 is intended as an exercise in design and is a means of gaining more ability to mfg key components. We are very excited about the design and believe it will be something to be proud of, however, let's keep it in perspective. It will be expensive and rare for quite awhile. Hopefully, people who know better will regard it as worth owning. It will not be compatible with many of the Mil-Std parts and so it isn't an AR15 so there will be some people who rule it out for that reason.

Let's answer your questions -

Reliability. I'm not sure what the question really is. We're not going to make any mistakes and so it will be 100% reliable. Is that what you want me to say? Well, let's face it. You can't do something with this much development in it without making a mistake or two. I'm guessing after teething pains that sometime next year X8's will ship with 95% quality and once any problems are fixed on the 5% with issues, the owners will regard them as totally reliable, assuming the owner isn't the weak link. I'll comment later on some of the component designs and decisions with a reference to the impact on reliability. Again, the main issue with the topic of reliability is you're comparing against an extremely reliable basic model, the Colt M4/M16. It would be hard to match that reliability, let alone exceed it. The problem may be that many people don't know how to run their guns and they are the reliability limit.

Accuracy - Once upon a time, we believed that our rifles needed to be insanely accurate out to 700 yards. Many of our customers are very concerned with accuracy and are happy with their NGA's. The X8 will have two types of barrel options at first. Noveske heavy stainless barrels will continue the tradition of combat tough and more accurate than the ammo can do or the shooters are likely to need. Most people will probably opt for a chrome-lined (or possibly melonited), CHF, std weight barrel in order to save weight and $. My question to you is how important is it to bring the inherent accuracy down below the 1 MOA range? Not many real shooters need better and it's not meant as a target rifle.

So far, simulations are showing weight will be 1/3 lb less than the X7 with equivalent barrels, but there are still changes being worked on. We care about weight, but we care more about durability and rigidity.

We've tuned the action and compensator about as far as we know how on the X7 so recoil will seem very similar. There will be improvements to surface finishes in the upper, buffer tube, action spring and bcg so that will have a minor affect, mostly to whether you can hear it clunking around in there. Any weight reduction will increase perceived recoil as physics requires, but the bottom line is this will be among the easiest to shoot-fast rifles you could think of. The trigger is a major part of that.
 
"The X7 has the following NGA-made components: LR and half of the parts kit, forend and its parts kit, muzzle device, gas block, optional rails, and we do finish machining of the UR and barrel. We don't make the barrel, BCG, charging handle, gas tube, most of the LR extension kit, trigger group or plastic furniture. Springs and hardware are a mix. Some are made to our spec and some are std."

So it is a parts rifle. You make the tacticool parts and somebody else makes the shooting parts. Am I missing something?

The most important parts of an AR are the barrel and trigger, followed by the bolt group. But you don't do these. I'm not trying to kill a sale for 'ya, but I think the OP is VERY EXCITED!!! (kind of like my cocker spaniel when my wife gets home) and could use some good information. This site isn't about selling wares, so expect some heat if you are peddling them.

I've spent some time on the range, trained SDM's using the M4 rifle, and tooled around in an SF arms room/gunsmith shop. I've built my fair share, worn some out, and I tested the Beowulf in the army for unit adoption. I've been using this platform for a loooong time --before all the tacticool stuff even came out. I just don't see anymore "breakthroughs" in this design that haven't been done already. The industry is running out of places to put rails.

I also bet I can build a more accurate rifle for less. Why? Because I use a good trigger too and I get the best barrel I can. Any mil spec receivers will work, matching them yourself is nice but not needed --it is simply the junk that holds the barrel, bolt group, and trigger group together. KAC makes a good FF rail system, but to be honest, a $99 Olympic Arms rail does the exact same thing. I'm not a fan of Oly's work, but they did price it right, and I guess they marketed it right too, because according to them some SF guy supposedly said "The thing I like best about my FIRSH rail is that it doesn't whistle when I HALO." Really? You've got to be kidding.

Now the only reason I'd get a "name brand" mil spec over a plain mil spec receiver set is for resale value. The OP and his ilk would simply buy a rifle built on a Noveske receiver and pay more for it than the same rifle built on a mil spec no-name receiver. But since I don't sell my stuff, I don't have this dilemma.

Oh yeah, and if your rifle is compatible with other AR parts, then it is indeed a parts rifle because that would mean that it relies (or should rely) on mil spec tolerances.

Using a billet for the receivers is fine, but not needed. An upper and lower, mil spec, new and hand matched myself, is about $200. I've never seen one break that wasn't ran over, other parts wear out first.
 
The X8 will not be offered stripped. There's no point. The design tradeoff here is to forgo compatibility and make as many improved parts as possible. Many parts don't really need improvement per se, but we're tired of the issue of not having the actual Colt drawings for everything so we're looking at everything as a blank slate.

For example, sometime next year we expect to incorporate our own designed and mfg'd BCG along with a proprietary barrel extension. Kinda like what KAC did but with some improvements (I know that sounds ridiculous).

We know that this decision restricts the market and regret that aspect of it, but we're more interested in contributing something unique than just supplying a me-too AR15 like 100 others out there.
 
BS artists?] I'll admit there was BS around here in the past but artists? Now that's going too far!

NGA once claimed that your rifles needed no lubrication... What happened to that particular claim?
Who first made it?
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/next-generation-arms-mp168-spc-556mm/



BS artists?]
Finally, regarding the slam against our "long-winded claim" that only we know how to assemble an AR15 and you don't, well who's being the BS artist now? All I said was there's a lot more to it than "most" people are willing or able to do properly and especially so regarding assembly of the X7.

I have the post in question right here.




It's a common and reasonable opinion that you can select a set of quality parts and put your care and effort into making just as good a gun as we can.

Nope, sorry.

Oh sure, you can order a $455 Noveske Afghan barrel and a $199 Geissele SSA trigger (oops looks like it's out of stock at Brownells) and so forth. And you can put all those together and the result will be a reliable, accurate, nice looking and performing build, as long as you really sweat all the details and make no mistakes in your selection.

One advantage of doing it this way is you will really know the details about your rifle. Not a bad thing.

Will you spend less than buying prebuilt from NGA? Only if you stick to your parts list and never make a mistake and want to buy a "better" part. You might be able to do it for $2k, but would you like the LR, LPK and forend as much. Maybe.

Will you do a better job of putting it together? No way. We're not a giant factory with anonymous, low-paid, clock-punchers. We're a small shop and everyone here is expert at their part of the puzzle. We've built several orders of magnitude more AR-15's than you could yourself in your lifetime. Would you weigh your buffer tube (lower receiver extension if you prefer) and check its dimensions and inspect the interior surface and would you have known that VLTOR makes the nicest one available? If you did weigh or measure or inspect, would you have been able to compare the results with hundreds of others or against a table of specs to be sure yours was ok? How about your BCG? Would you know how to check that? Would you use a torque wrench to make sure the gas key screws are tight and then would you add your own redundant staking without hurting anything in the process?

Would you have made sure that your upper receiver arrives with extended feed ramps? Would they be sized properly so you have no chance of catching the bullet on the barrel extension?

How would you make sure that your upper and lower receiver fit tightly with no play at all?

Look, I could keep going for hours at this. It's not like assembling the Space Shuttle or building a car from scratch, but there are a lot of details and they matter. It will be a very, very unusual single enthusiast who can build as well as we do, try as you might.

Will you pick the right components and modify them properly? Not a chance that you'll be able to mash together a set of premium parts that work as well together as our system. First, you probably can't afford to throw away as many choices as we have. Second, you probably aren't going to design your own action spring (buffer spring if you prefer) or some other component that just isn't performing up to par. Third, are you going to take apart the gun umpteen times after testing the action until the gas port is reamed to the optimal diameter? Will you go too far and ruin that nice Noveske barrel? Will you design a totally custom compensator and tune it for your gun? How can you expect a generic compensator to perfectly match the forces in your specific build? You can't.

Your gun will be nice to shoot. Good AR's are like that. But if you want the least possible recoil and muzzle movement, while still operating reliably, you won't equal what we've done.

Will your gun feel as good? Whoa, whadya mean? Will the safety selector operate as smoothly as our custom, precision stainless steel design? It won't. Will the mag release operate as effortlessly without ever releasing prematurely. Nope. Our little custom parts are far higher precision and operate much smoother than yours will. Your magazines won't drop as fast out of the mag well and you won't be able to insert the mags as fast either. We designed a new lower receiver to accomplish that. Will your build have sharp edges and corners that cut and abrade your fingers or jam your nails. The X7 doesn't. Will your parts selection add up to an overall weight that feels good? The X7, at approximately 6.5 lbs, is very, very tough and rigid. Will you sacrifice weight for strength or vice versa?

At the end of the day (or days if you're building your own), you can build or buy a nice rifle that works well and you'll be proud of it. It may or may not look as good as the X7, it almost certainly won't perform as well, and you will be lucky if you don't buy two or three parts for every one you end up with before you're done.

I don't expect everyone to agree with all of that, but be honest with yourself.
 
"The X7 has the following NGA-made components: LR and half of the parts kit, forend and its parts kit, muzzle device, gas block, optional rails, and we do finish machining of the UR and barrel. We don't make the barrel, BCG, charging handle, gas tube, most of the LR extension kit, trigger group or plastic furniture. Springs and hardware are a mix. Some are made to our spec and some are std."

So it is a parts rifle. You make the tacticool parts and somebody else makes the shooting parts. Am I missing something?

The most important parts of an AR are the barrel and trigger, followed by the bolt group. But you don't do these. I'm not trying to kill a sale for 'ya, but I think the OP is VERY EXCITED!!! (kind of like my cocker spaniel when my wife gets home) and could use some good information. This site isn't about selling wares, so expect some heat if you are peddling them.

I've spent some time on the range, trained SDM's using the M4 rifle, and tooled around in an SF arms room/gunsmith shop. I've built my fair share, worn some out, and I tested the Beowulf in the army for unit adoption. I've been using this platform for a loooong time --before all the tacticool stuff even came out. I just don't see anymore "breakthroughs" in this design that haven't been done already. The industry is running out of places to put rails.

I also bet I can build a more accurate rifle for less. Why? Because I use a good trigger too and I get the best barrel I can. Any mil spec receivers will work, matching them yourself is nice but not needed --it is simply the junk that holds the barrel, bolt group, and trigger group together. KAC makes a good FF rail system, but to be honest, a $99 Olympic Arms rail does the exact same thing. I'm not a fan of Oly's work, but they did price it right, and I guess they marketed it right too, because according to them some SF guy supposedly said "The thing I like best about my FIRSH rail is that it doesn't whistle when I HALO." Really? You've got to be kidding.

Now the only reason I'd get a "name brand" mil spec over a plain mil spec receiver set is for resale value. The OP and his ilk would simply buy a rifle built on a Noveske receiver and pay more for it than the same rifle built on a mil spec no-name receiver. But since I don't sell my stuff, I don't have this dilemma.

Oh yeah, and if your rifle is compatible with other AR parts, then it is indeed a parts rifle because that would mean that it relies (or should rely) on mil spec tolerances.

Using a billet for the receivers is fine, but not needed. An upper and lower, mil spec, new and hand matched myself, is about $200. I've never seen one break that wasn't ran over, other parts wear out first.
It's hard to disagree with your general points. You may be experienced enough to set up an AR that does what you want. Also, like most shooters, how refined do you need this thing to be? Put the thing on the thing and pull the thing.

However, there are improvements to the basic setup that do improve operation. Generic compensators (or brakes) provide first-order muzzle control but are not well calibrated to your particular setup. Most gas blocks leak at the seat. Ceramic does reduce the amount of lube and maintenance. It's a long list adding up to refinement that isn't required by anyone to get the job done but the benefits are worth it to some.
 
NGA once claimed that your rifles needed no lubrication... What happened to that particular claim?
Who first made it?
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/next-generation-arms-mp168-spc-556mm/





I have the post in question right here.
Humble apologies for the no-oil message.

However...

We still have customers who run without any lube and very successfully. Several of our testers run without lube. You can run any decent AR without lube. The question is how many rounds before trouble and how long will the system last like that? Ceramic coated components will run oil-free for thousands of rounds under most conditions. I've seen a test on a non-coated BCM that went 2500 rounds before fail. I've seen many cases where our coated systems went 5,000 to 10,000 rounds without fail and without lube. But there have also been some cases where failure occurred at near 2,000 rounds due to interactions between humidity condensation and powder residue for example.

It wasn't a wise move to advocate running without oil, but it was based on testing and you can do it (just like driving too fast and drinking too much).

Regarding the "you can't build it as good as we can", I still like that piece. There's nothing there I'd retract, except possibly using less words.
 
There's nothing there I'd retract, except possibly using less words.

Fair enough.

There are some things that I like about the X7,just to prove I'm not negative nelly, my issues are mostly mostly with the over the top and abrasive way that the product is presented. You were bordering on this for a while there:
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

I like the lower, I think its a dandy design and its a shame you don't sell it separate. That magwell is smart.
The shape of the forearm looks like it would be ideal for a thumbs forward support hand hold.
I like that its nice and light.

Since we have you here:

Third, are you going to take apart the gun umpteen times after testing the action until the gas port is reamed to the optimal diameter?
What is the "optimal diameter" with your buffer (weight?) and spring (weight,rate?) combo?

Will you design a totally custom compensator and tune it for your gun? How can you expect a generic compensator to perfectly match the forces in your specific build? You can't.

In this context what do you mean precisely by "tune" and "perfectly match the forces"?


Assume that I have a basic working knowledge of fluid mechanics AND general gunsmithing.
 
The X8 will not be offered stripped. There's no point. The design tradeoff here is to forgo compatibility and make as many improved parts as possible.

Shame...there are a lot of people who like the basic platform but not the components you offer...there are much better out there. From the options I have seen on the website you have a Ferrari chassis but Kia running gear and engine in it. Not to mention the plethora of different calibers that the platform would be good for.
 
Shame...there are a lot of people who like the basic platform but not the components you offer...there are much better out there. From the options I have seen on the website you have a Ferrari chassis but Kia running gear and engine in it. Not to mention the plethora of different calibers that the platform would be good for.
Kia running gear and engine? Did I hear you right? I'm looking forward to thanking you for your recommendations on how to equip our Ferrari properly.

We've made all sorts of configurations with all sorts of components at the customer's preference. All you gotta do is call and talk. That includes 6.8's and 300BLK's.
 
Fair enough.

There are some things that I like about the X7,just to prove I'm not negative nelly, my issues are mostly mostly with the over the top and abrasive way that the product is presented. You were bordering on this for a while there:
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

I like the lower, I think its a dandy design and its a shame you don't sell it separate. That magwell is smart.
The shape of the forearm looks like it would be ideal for a thumbs forward support hand hold.
I like that its nice and light.

Since we have you here:


What is the "optimal diameter" with your buffer (weight?) and spring (weight,rate?) combo?



In this context what do you mean precisely by "tune" and "perfectly match the forces"?


Assume that I have a basic working knowledge of fluid mechanics AND general gunsmithing.
No way I'm offering up these numbers. First, what we do isn't free. Second, I don't want to debate what the right size for the gas port is. There's no right answer, just tradeoffs. Third, you'll get different results with different makes of barrel, different hammer springs, various styles of drilling the gas port, etc etc and there are obviously other valid combinations of component values that will also work well.

Generally speaking, the gas port is enlarged vs. std. This provides margin for reliable bolt lock back with weak civilian ammo. We're using the extra gas working against a very heavy action spring in order to optimize reliable stripping of the top round and allow for margin as the gas rings wear, the magazines are overstuffed and dirty and so forth.

On the other hand, we've worked out another combination of settings for A5 rear-ends for people who prefer them.

Regarding development of the compensator, it's really not all that difficult or mysterious. The basic problem is to tradeoff port size for brake efficiency vs. noise and then to configure the up/down/sideways net angle of the ports to counteract the typical muzzle movement. There are no magic forces acting directly at the muzzle to cause it to pitch or yaw. The muzzle pitches or yaws mainly because of the reaction of the gun to the inertia of the shooter's body trying to stop it from recoiling through the center of contact (somewhere along the butt plate).

If you start testing carefully, you will find that the general up and right muzzle movement is poorly compensated by commercial muzzle devices. I don't want to pretend there's an ideal solution for every shooter/buttstock combination but it's easy to optimize the compensator port angles to reduce pitch and yaw to much lower average levels than most people expect. Not everyone of course. Some know all this already.

We found that a slight difference between settings was needed for two different barrel lengths so we make different ones for 14.5 and 16.
 
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