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NH: Vid of my latest open carry incident

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by DadaOrwell2, Aug 6, 2007.

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  1. DadaOrwell2

    DadaOrwell2 Member

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    This is a video of my August 5 open carry incident in New Hampshire. It starts audio-only then the video picks up a minute or two later when our pro photographer runs to the scene.

    Basically I'm a liberty activist here; I wear a holstered pistol in public roughly once a week. It's legal in New Hampshire but not that common south of the notches. Cops sometimes ignore, sometimes harass you for doing it. When that happens to me, I don't get angry but use the chance to educate police about the open carry rights of NH citizens.

    I was walking 50 yards from my car to the monthly Free Stater meeting at Murphy's Taproom in downtown Manchester. I usually open carry to that meeting.

    I was noticed by a state trooper, but I noticed him too and called the Free Staters' emergency hotline before he got to me. In the video you hear my call realtime, as I report my situation and try to explain to our listeners what's happening.

    Folks inside the bar also came running out to support me. Police thought it was pre-planned it happened so fast, like they'd been set up or something. But this is just how our guys react when they're nearby. I appreciate the fact that the police were able to maintain calm and respectful demeanor despite some of the anger directed against them by the crowd. But of course look I forward to the day when they don't make such stops in the first place.

    Note that I am able to lawfully refuse them when they ask for my "papers" and personal information. If you think this is a better outcome than you'd get where you are now.....move up here and share our freedoms!

    Visit www.FreeStateProject.org

    Thanks to all who showed support during and after this incident.

    Hopefully this video will remind people New Hampshire does allow open carry, that officers here do handle themselves better than in most states, and that the Free Staters are continuing to improve level of support which is available to freedom lovers when police take exception to their responsible exercise of rights.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWX...nderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=10019.45
     
  2. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    go bust the girl scouts... lol
     
  3. Geno
    • Contributing Member

    Geno Member

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    I suspect, per the officers' body language, that if the cameras and witnesses had not been there, the questioning would have been much more aggressive, and would likely have moved the the PD.

    For what my view is worth, that was/is an awesome video!

    Oh yes, I forgot about that...the girl scout...that was good! It seemed they were grabbing for anything and everything they could to find wrong-doing. That is part of what I mean body-language. This is a great video!
     
  4. brentn

    brentn Member

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    ^Yep, I bet he would have been taken downtown had the cameras and cell phone conversation not taken place.

    Well dadaorwell, let me say this,
    you got one set of balls...
    I think alec baldwin said it best "brass balls"

    You handeled that exceptionally well with an open mind to your rights and to the officers and how they would react in a situation like that. Good job.
    Its too bad that you were harassed, and thats exactly what it was, had you walked away from the officer after you were checked out (providing only your name and address using nothing official) you probably would have got your ass beat down and detained. It would have gone to court, and you would have been found not guilty and probably an apologie would be provided.
    The next day you get out of your car with your gun and it will probably happen all over again...

    sad really.. The officers should be well aware of carry laws, especially when you live in america one of the last free countrys with such a right. Its nice to know that you guys are publicizing this, making everyone aware of whats going on...

    The way I see it, gun laws get stricter and stricter every day in free countries becuase citizens having guns are a threat to the governments control on the public.
     
  5. kungfuhippie

    kungfuhippie Member

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    Wow, BIG BRASS ONES is right.
    Amazing how it took so many cops to decide that he was no breaking any law. ANd then could only lecture him about group assembly law that is probably some anti-gang activity legislation.
     
  6. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    From where I sit--just amazing.

    Bravo.
     
  7. GRB

    GRB member

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    From where I sit it looks as if you were athe person who tried to rpovoke things, and the whole thing probably would have been over much sooner had you shown some form of identification. I can guarantee that if you did that with a federal LEO, you could have been taken in for questioning, and quite legally at that.

    I mean so what if you have this right or that, why would you choose to act like you did. Let the officer do his job, file a complaint later if you think he did it wrong; or if you wanted almost immediate action you should have done the smart thing immedaitely and asked for the officer to call his supervisor to the scene. Instead you actually appear to have tried to just rag the officer to keep this goiung and to make a big deal out of, much like a flamer, by getting on your phone and calling your group. They don't always come up like gang busters, just as this guy did not. He came onto you professionally and with courtesy and respect. You did not show the same respect for him. Imagine one opther thing about the officer, that he was responding to a felony call and you fit the description of the bad guy. Much better off to be polite, respectful, not try to rile the waters, and just comply within reason to his requests to see some ID.

    As for your friend, I can assure you, if he had made that move in front of my face, the one he did to the other officer, I would have brought him to the ground and handcuffed him before his hands waved uip and down - and I would have been all well within my rights.

    I like freedoms as much as the next guy, maybe even more, but I can not see people starting problems like I believe you did over such a petty thing as an officer asking to see some ID, and that is exactly when you seemingly escalated it. As opposed to what your friend says, no one was accosted and no one demanded ID from you from what I heard.

    One other thing, on going into a tap room, and I imagine that means as in taps for alcoholic beverages, is pretty foolish especially while carrying openly - you are almost begging for a a hassle from anyone who has imbibed too much.

    Liberties and rights are both great, so is acting responsibly; and liberties and rights come with responsibilities.

    All the best,
    Glenn B
     
  8. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    But this is just how our guys react when they're nearby.

    In fairness, from the video, you KNEW you had pals of like mind nearby.

    Did you provoke a confrontation, sure--passively--but ONLY by exercising your rights with gentlemanly deportmant. For that matter, the LEO's you encountered seemed put off perhaps, but very nice about things.
     
  9. kaizer

    kaizer Member

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    I liked the vid but I agree with the previous poster. Your friend is an idiot, all he was doing was escalating the situation. When I saw him move like that I thought for sure that he was gonna get some. I am not LEO, but if somebody comes at me like that I am going to feed him cement.
     
  10. newman32

    newman32 Member

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    Excellent. I'm impressed. Part of the reason I want to move to NH is because in NJ, only the criminals are allowed to carry guns.

    I do agree with other posters that your friend unnecessarily provoked the MPD officer. In Jersey, he would have gotten lumped-up pretty good for that. You did great by yourself!

    Glenn Bartley -
    So what if you have this right or that????A right not exercised is a right that does not exist! That's just like allowing for an search of your home w/o a warrant because you should just "let the officer do his job". :rolleyes:

    We have a job too, and it is to exercise our rights as citizens at all times, even when not convenient or comfortable.

    Bravo Dada!
     
  11. DadaOrwell2

    DadaOrwell2 Member

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    >>but I can not see people starting problems like I believe you did over such a petty thing as an officer asking to see some ID, and that is exactly when you seemingly escalated it.>>

    It may be "petty" to you but "papers please" has an important significance historically. And you know what? You don't get to decide what is petty for me.

    I do agree with you about the importance of being polite. I feel I did that. But that doesn't mean I'm going to hand cops my papers when I'm just a pedestrian. The right to refuse police requests for pedestrian ID...that is critical and one of the few rights cops still respect.

    If you want to follow their "papers please" request, I can't stop you. But there are precious few of us left who say no to such requests, and when there are none of us it will cease to be a request. Then we'll be at a place where you-know-which-country was in 1933.
     
  12. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    Glenn, I think the issue being brought up here is that open carry sometimes results in harassment(and that's what it is) by officers who aren't used to seeing it, or feel that they have the duty to stop and check the credentials of everyone doing it. Regardless of how public-safety minded an officer is, it is not a legitimate cause to stop and ask questions of a person who is open carrying safely while walking down the street, according to the open carry laws in most states.
    If he had chosen to ignore the officer(s), things would have turned ugly, first for the victim, then for city/organization that the officers represent. Do you believe that every person has the duty to submit to questioning by a police officer when they have broken no law? I do not. I'm not being jerkish about it. We have become so acustomed, already, to the fact that the government has the ability (not the authority) to demand we listen to it whenever we encounter it. Going about our daily business is not a reason for an officer to stop us, even if it involves the carrying of a firearm. So it's out of place. Big deal. Were he carrying it in his hand, maybe you could chat with him, maybe run his license in some states.
    But in a holster? The officer should have thought it was odd, noted that the guy didn't look like a nut-job, and that it was holstered, and went on his way. There was no crime being committed, so there was no reason to stop him. That would have been the outcome in court, should he be arrested for declining to give information. The city issues an apology, maybe pays some money, and no one is really better off.

    Is this the way it's supposed to work? I'm sorry if my attitude seems anti-police. I am not. I think many of them do a lot of good. I'm also not the type to be a jerk if stopped.
    But I honestly do think this video (minus the real jerk in the video, kudos to the cop for not reacting) presents a fairly good point. What is the law, where are the defining lines we are acustomed to versus where they are actually drawn on paper, and should we accept things if they are found to be wrong?
     
  13. rockinrussky

    rockinrussky Member

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    Quite an interesting video. I do agree that your friend (I assume) did overreact but otherwise the situation was handled very responsibly. Here in Virginia its also legal to open carry without any sort of a license. There have been stories similar to this one happening here as well involving the police. Either way, its a nice educational opportunity for some. Anyone here have any interesting stories or vids about VA open carry? (sorry if its slightly off topic)
     
  14. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Tell us about your T-shirt. Also, the laminated badge you were wearing.
     
  15. goings_51

    goings_51 Member

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    I watched this a few hours ago and had mixed emotions. I don't remember him asking for ID until you started calling people and "webcasting" the conversation. That says to me that you expect trouble. It was pretty obvious that this was an attempt for attention.

    That said, I would have also been offended if I was walking down the street minding my own business and was stopped and asked for ID. I think the best strategy for dealing with street cops is to cooperate fully and deal with any issues later. Perhaps an appropriate e-mail/letter/phone call to a newspaper/city councilman/supervisor would have been more appropriate.

    As for your frind... he is an instigator and I wouldn't want to associate any sort of 2A cause with that sort of personality. I'm not saying he's violent, that sort of behavior just doesn't do any favors.
     
  16. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    G21: Please stay in California. :barf:
     
  17. Geno
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    Geno Member

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    Not to thump my chest, but the cognate from my Ph.D. is communication (analysis of videos for verbal and physical communication). Now, we have all viewed the same video. Odd how we all view it so differently. Let's establish a set of facts:

    1) In open carrying, the gentleman broke no law.
    2) The police stopped the gentleman, because he had a lawfully holstered, open-carry pistol.
    3a) The gentleman was respectful in his answers.
    3b) Some may assert that he provoked the officer by talking on the cellular phone, but it was not illegal.
    4) The lead officer was polite, but woefully under-informed.
    5) The back-up officer exhibited the attitude of a bulldog-on-alert, emotionless and intimating "You twitch; I shoot; you die!" Frankly, of all involved here, I found that the most unprofessional of all.
    6a) A gentleman, who was witness, pulls attention to the bull-dog-like officer emotionlessness, by waiving his hand.
    6b) Some may assert the witness was foolish. He broke no law.
    7) A third officer came along to educate the two other officers, and bail them out for their bad detention and lack of information.
    8) In the end, the sole violation was the girl scouts' poster was improperly placed.
    9) Re: the poster violation, here too, the police jumped-the-gun (pun intended) and chastised the gentleman even before reviewing what the poster was!

    In closing, I have already witnessed more chest-thumping in this thread that I care to witness. We have a learning opportunity here, not an opportunity for a The High Road brawl. So, let's kick this video around! Step up to the plate and state your facts! I did!

    By the way, I did not bother to cite even 1/3 of the facts here. There is so much more to be posted. Let's have to...

    Edit to add:

    G21, do you care to step up to my "facts-only" challenge? (Doc2005 passes G21 the bat). Take your best observational facts swing.

    Doc2005
     
  18. target1911

    target1911 Member

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    WOW....you dont have Identify when asked???? TX passed a recently that if a LEO askes you for ID, for any reason, ya better give it up or be arrested. <<<<<YES I think it sux...YES I think it is invation of privicy and is wrong. However, I havnt heard of any LEOs abusing that power, but I am sure it has happened in RARE occations.
     
  19. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    G21, NH is not California. Live Free or Die.

    Dada, your handwaving friend is gonna get himself in trouble. In that situation, I would have definitely taken that as a threatening movement.
     
  20. goings_51

    goings_51 Member

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    This is childish. If you have something to say say it. Better yet, let's stay on the topic. If you have something to say about the topic, say it. If not, keep your post to yourself.
     
  21. Geno
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    Geno Member

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    "Gentlemen"...I have thrown out a challenge...I'm waiting for a taker-to-the-challenge...the facts!

    We don't need emotion; any fool can exhibit emotion. We need facts.
     
  22. goings_51

    goings_51 Member

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    I wasn't paying attention and took the G21 comment as a comment to me since the login is similar, but it still applies.
     
  23. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    goings_51:

    Do you believe that:
    Is an adult comment?

    If you notice, I have contributed, I have asked the OP to fill us in with some more background. (And I have tried, via sarcasm, to refute the rantings of a statist freedom hater.)
     
  24. 2TransAms

    2TransAms Member

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    Those policemen probably walked away cursing you. I know you don't have to give them your ID,but wouldn't it have been easier to cooperate while informing them of your open-carry rights in NH? Seems to me it would have gone a lot quicker.
     
  25. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Fact 1: The OP exercised his rights.
    Fact 2: He received grief for doing so.
    Fact 3: He captured his experience on video, and made us aware of it.
    Opinion 1: Some of the responses posted here are more indignant of his actions than those of the police who attempted to violate his rights.
    Opinion 2: The reaction to this thread is as surprising to me as the flak that Templar took in his Chicago buy-back thread.
    Opinion 3: We are in a sad state of affairs when the participants on the nation's foremost firearms forum express statist anti-freedom comments.
     
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