NIB KIMBER Failure in the first 100 rounds!

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Here is the real problem Tuner. Big business does not want any higher skilled personnel than is absolutely necessary. From a business perspective, an ideal assembly line should be set up where the average person off the street can be trained within 30 days and then occasionally monitored. At that point, he/she is turned loose and allowed to insert a trigger, or buff down a slide. The further an organization deviates from the skill of the average labor force, the higher is their labor cost. Not only that, but an organization must deal with replacement due to sickness, death, vacation, termination.

Even if there were enough business to allow one or two people full time work, it would still be considered out-of-sync or off-lline work. Now these two employees must perform the task of many assembly line workers, because those two individuals are no longer on a line. This means of course that their skill level must be higher, which means higher wages, difficulty in replacing said employees, etc.

Gets complicated doesn't it? And all you wanted was some forged parts.

Good Shooting,

Dobe
 
Proper execution of that design is all that's required, using materials up to the original specs

That's the whole point, it mostly ain't. The bling bling I can do without. The basic gun I buy is a genuwine Horse pistol. If I want it gussied up, I'll take care of it. The gaudy stuff is generally bought by guys new in the game who need what's on the gunzines latest cover photo.
 
Logistics and other Bugs

Dobe...Good points, and if I do understand logistics headaches. I was
a Marine Rifleman in Vietnam and worked in the manufacturing industry
for years. I'm a toolmaker by trade. I'm also a pistolsmith.

Ordnance-spec 1911's are, and have been for years...assembled
with select-fit, drop-in parts...no high level of skill required. It
all started with the high demand for guns just before the outset of
WW2, when the engineers determined that the 1911 could function
with looser tolerances than the hand-assembled and fitted pistols
prior to that era.

As it stands today, all or most of the parts that I mentioned aren't
made in-house by Colt. (or Kimber, or Springfield Armory) They are
contracted out to different suppliers, and are provided by the lowest
bidder. Colt hasn't even made its own magazines in nearly 20 years.
They are provided by Metalform.

I maintain that if a low-cost, MIM or investment cast small part made in
a different location can be made within spec, so can a high-grade steel
part. If a spring steel extractor,say...cost Joe Average 25 bucks a copy
ordered one at a time, that cost could be on the order of 15 dollars
when a contract for 10,000 extractors is bartered for.

I recently underwent a project with my ex-wife's oldest son. He came to
me to ask about building a Commander, and I countered with an offer
to build two...One for me and one for him. I built one while he watched,
and he built his while I guided. Both were built on Essex slides and
frames, mainly for the sake of economy, since he's on a fairly tight
budget. Both pistols are no-frill on the outside, all business on the
inside. Both guns required some hand-fitting in certain areas, but
most of the time was spent on cutting the 5-inch Springfield barrels
down and reshaping the lower barrel lugs to work in the short slides.
Basic prep on the trigger group, with a little attention to detail on
the sears and hammer hooks produced two very nice pistols that
hit the ground running, and will shoot tighter than all but a Distinguished
Expert can appreciate without a sandbag rest. Both pistols required
about 15 hours, total time involved. If we had been able to have
access to a large number of ordnance-spec parts to select-fit, that
could have been cut down to 5 hours, including the time spent
on the lathe for the barrel redesign, and hand-shaping the lower lugs
with files. Time was also spent fitting the King's trigger to his frame.
I used a stock Colt trigger for mine...A drop-in.

The total cost was less than 600 bucks a copy...and remember that all
parts were purchased as a one-item order from Brownell's. Mass-production would have brought that figure down to a little over
half that. Add machined steel slides and frames, and the cost would
have been back up to about 500 dollars...again assuming mass-production.
A 250-300 dollar profit margin per unit would be acceptable from a bean-counter's standpoint, albeit maybe a little lower than a gun assembled with
Molded in Pressed Beer Cans small parts. Colt already uses machined
barstock slide stops, thumb safeties, hammers, and they have recently
returned to steel barstock extractors, so the cost wouldn't be off the
scale to add the sear, barrel bushing, grip safety, hammer strut, and firing pin stop. Retail price on such a pistol would be in the 750-800 dollar
range, and it would be fully the equal of an "Old Colt".

It's doable. Colt...If you build it, they will come.

Cheers!
Tuner
 
BigG,

The gaudy stuff is generally bought by guys new in the game who need what's on the gunzines latest cover photo.

Yeah, maybe after another 18 years I'll get over my silly infatuation for flat mainspring housings, beavertails, extended safeties, long triggers, modern sights, et cetera.

After all, by then I may realize that classic looks are more important than shootability or ergonomics. ;) :p
 
Tuner,
I wish you were right. I like and appreciate craftsmanship and forged parts. I have a collection of hand-forged knives that...well that's another story. I long for the days of the craftsmanship of the Pre-64 Winchesters. But, things change.

I respectfully dissagree with your cost analysis, not on the individual cost of each part. I realize that you have made 1911's yourself. It is the assembly-line concept and the off-line labor personnel that will add to cost. Marlin is an interesting comparison. Marlin (unless recently changed) will not perform any custom work. Custom to Marlin means anything out of the ordinary. Marlin will not even make you a lever action without sights. Now, how much more time does it take to "not" cut a dove-tail and drill a hole? You would think that my request would save them money.

It wouldn't because it brings into play a non-standard into a standardized assembly-line system. It would actually cost them money to do so. They could hire a gunsmith to take care of the custom work, but they would still pay him/her when he is not busy with custom work, and they must replace him when he leaves (its that skilled-labor thing again). I am saying this based upon your request for all forged parts as a request from Colt. This of course means that Colt would have to make these handguns off-line, at least until demand grew. At that point, there would be two lines. Now that becomes expensive.

The best way, in my humble opinion for Colt or any manufacturer to economically sustain this endeavor would be for them to use nothing but forged parts. Perhaps advertise the quality difference, and draw in business. But, with the economic woes that Colt has experience, I don't see them experimenting with the market.

Anyway, it is nice to dream, and I hope you get what you want. For the price you quoted, I would gladly drop a 1911 of mine off to you in two weeks. That is the next time I will be in North Carolina. Perhaps we can drink a cup of coffee, and even shoot a few rounds.

Good Shooting,

Dobe
 
Ahhhh, SHUCKS!

Dobe...If there's anything I hate, it's a man who busts my bubble with
reasoned argument and logic.:D

I'd still bet that Colt could use all steel parts in their production
lines with a modest cost increase...They've already got half the parts named...Why not go all the way? Colt? COLT??? Think of the
ad slogan! "The return to the Colt that your Grandpa Owned.
All Steel Construction." If you build it, they will come.

Next time you're headed for North Carolina, and ya get near
Winston-Salem, look me up. I'm ready to drink coffee, tell tall tales,
tweak a pistol, or burn up a thousand rounds at the drop of a hat.

Shoot straight, and watch your six!
Tuner
 
You're the man Tuner. I won't be in Winston for another two months as I just finished a logistics project in that area. I will be in Raleigh though. Perhaps, I will send you a PM in about 2 months.

I must admit that you had me excited about a quality gun with forged parts. It would be great. And of course, if I had your talents, I would do it all myself. Take care

Good Shooting

Dobe
 
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Tamara :rolleyes: you know I am talking about models that emphasize the bling bling while neglecting making a reliable piece to begin with. Why do you only address me to argue? Sorry if I rub you the wrong way! :eek:
 
Talent?

Ahhhhh, Dobe. It ain't exactly rocket science. Unless you get into
weldin' up frame rails and barrel lugs and such, all it takes is new,
good quality parts and a little attention to prep work and detail.
My step-son pulled off his first time build without a hitch, and when he
approached me, he didn't even know how to field-strip a 1911.

If you'd like to give it a go, I'll get a parts list together, and when you
can make a road trip, I'll sit down and walk you through it. If you
go with a 5-inch pistol, there won't be any barrel modification needed,
and you can have a very good slide/frame fit...tight barrel lockup,
and good steel small parts.

Tamara! Now, I happen to like flat mainspring housings and long triggers.
The old Colts had those things 75 years ago. The upswept, ducktail
safety is a comfort, for sure. High-viz fixed sights are also a welcome
addition for my old eyes. The things that are available for the pistol
to make it better suit individual tastes are a good thing. I think that
the point Big G was trying to make is that while these things can be
very nice, they aren't critical in order to have a functional and reliable gun.
I have always gotten along well with pretty much the classic design,
with flat housing and long, smooth trigger, but whatever anyone wants to add or subtract to make the pistol better fit the hand and the individual
taste is perfectly acceptable...as long as the gun is mechanically reliable.
For pure aesthetic appeal, I like the old GI pistols...but beauty is, after
all, in the eye of the beholder...and I've seen some beautifully done
customs, too.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
Tuner,

Colt should/could have tried what you want with their new series 70 at $900-1000.

That would have provided some additional justification for the high price, other than the better polishing job and no series 80 stuff.
Colt would have to "market" the quality inside the gun to sell more than just hundreds in a year, and marketing just isn't in their nature.

The jury is still out on MIM for me. I wonder whether Kimber's execution is the problem as oppossed to the process- don't know!

But, I'd still rather have all forged, barstock, etc steel. ;)
 
BigG,

Why do you only address me to argue?

I thought I was only addressing you to tease! :eek:

Seriously, this lack of facial expressions and tone-of-voice can be rough on a smart alec like me. Mea maxima culpa. :uhoh:
 
And they told me 4 years of Latin in college would go to waste.

By they way Tuner. Hmmmmmm:rolleyes: Check out that verb. Unless you are quoting one of the classicals (they sometimes got it wrong too) I really think that verb should be infinitive:D ..."efficere".
 
I've got two very early Kimbers that each have well over 10k rounds through them - probably more like 20 or 25k rounds.
And I've had no problems at all; I mean none, zip, nada!

I researched it at the time and though it's been a few years, I'm pretty darned sure that the mim parts (at that time) were limited to things like thumb and grip safety and other parts that didn't take a battering.
When I read that parts like the hammer and sear, etc, are now being made of mim it really gives me pause...

I'm not so sure I'd buy a Kimber today... it's not like they are passing the savings along to the consumer!

Keith
 
Report to follow soon....

Skunk and friends,
I haven't forgotten ya'll! I got busy back in Sept. with some shooting championships, and or course the dreaded four letter word, WORK, and didn't get the KIMBER sent off to Mr Garthwaite until Oct. He emailed me over the weekend to let me know he is almost finished. He has to regulate the HEINIE sites[and then reblue the sites]. Then it should be on the way to me.

A full report will follow;)

Guys[and Gals], as I re-read this thread, we seem to have wandered[not a bad thing] from my report of a new gun failure, to the virtues of custom pistol work, on to old world craftmanship v. Economics.

I bought this pistol with the intentions of sending it to Garthwaite for custom work, so the part failure wasn't really a concern. The main reason I mentioned it, was so that folks that buy KIMBERS for box stock carryguns would think about checking their blasters' inner workings, and consider replacing a few small, inexpensive parts. I am more than ever convinced that ALL 1911's should be seriously "broken in" before they are trusted as defensive pistols. I strongly believe that while KIMBERS are great base pistols, they could certainly use a new sear and extractor.....and probally a new hammer. As it turned out, I had quite a few of the parts needed "instock" and access to the rest, so I replaced quite a few more than that:D But hey, its my custom pistol. We should see soon how it turned out.
 
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No Mouse Guns for daily carry...

Skunky,
Nope, no mousegun 9mm's for daily carry. I usually have WILSON COMBAT STEALTH[of course in .45acp], carried IWB, for my daily travels. Its built on a Springfield Lightweight Compact, and the first frame[factory Springfield] cracked in 3[!] places after a few years of 'duty'[I like to shoot my carryguns ALOT]. WILSON, bless their souls, replaced the frame with one of thier alloy frames, and it seems to be holding up fine.

One of the reasons I bought this KIMBER to build, is that not only will I have a totally stainless compact, it will have a steel frame, which I will feel better about pouring more practice rounds through. So, again, don't "feel sorry" about my KIMBER. Remember, when I bought it, I was already planning to throw away most all of the gun except the frame and slide. I only mentioned the sear failure to warn others of potential problems.

Skunk, maybe you need to send a 1911 to Jim Garthwaite for a quick "laying on of the hands".......he could take a Colt or a Springfield and make your dream gun come true, in couple of months;)
 
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This is one of the "Great Threads" that show up every once in a while. Well done posters! :D
 
Yeah, maybe after another 18 years I'll get over my silly infatuation for flat mainspring housings, beavertails, extended safeties, long triggers, modern sights, et cetera.

After all, by then I may realize that classic looks are more important than shootability or ergonomics.

For a number of years I had the same infatuation with flat mainspring housings, beavertails, extended safeties, long triggers, modern sights, et cetera. Then later I felt a nostalgic return to original mil-spec guns, and for some odd reason I discovered I shot those just as well, all other things being equal. Once you have a good trigger and sights, everything else is just fluff. A beavertail might make the pistol feel more comfy in the hand, but the difference in speed or accuracy is negligible over a stock GI unit.

This of course only means I prefer stock guns, and advise new shooters to try the basic configuration before thinking they need all the fancy stuff right off the bat. OTOH, if you've been shooting awhile and have a definite preference for flat mainspring housings, beavertails, extended safeties, long triggers, modern sights, et cetera by all means go for it!
 
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