Night Sights and Light vs Light laser, Please Advise!

[Shawn Michael]

For the basic bedside home defense pistol, THR and my LEO friends have talked me into getting a pistol mounted light. I do not feel I can accurately shoot and hold a light. No light = no target ID...so that is settled though there are good arguments pro and con the gun mounted light.

Next item is sights.

Laser? As in a streamlight TLR-2

OR

Trijicon type night sites which I assume would be needed to shoot in the dark even with the illumination of the light.

I have a S&W TRR8 (8 shot .357 with the rails) I like the sights on it now but I am willing to change them.

With the laser, once it is sighted in I assum you cannot take it on and off the gun and keep the accuracy...Is that correct??

If I had just a light I could take the light off to take the gun to the range.

Since I am just really learning how to shoot, having a laser just seems to change everything, and of course the laser could fail.

Anyone with experience offer some thoughts and point me in the direction of some good products (TLR-2 or some night sites if that makes more sense in my case?)

Thank you for advice!!

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have five Crimson Trace Laser grips on pistols and four Streamlight TLR-2 laser lights on 22, 40 S&W, and .223 caliber pistols and 12ga shotguns. I also have the ARMA laser on my Kel Tec P3AT.
If available, I won't be without a laser on a defense gun.

I practice with lasers 2-5 evenings a week.

Even though I have a green laser that can be seen in bright daylight I usually don't like to use lasers when I can see the iron sights, except maybe indoors when the laser can be clearly seen.

Since I am just really learning how to shoot, having a laser just seems to change everything, and of course the laser could fail

The laser is not a replacement for learning how to shoot well with iron sights. The laser is a different sighting system that will give very good results in low light or darkness when the iron sights can't be seen but it isn't a magic sighting system that makes poor shooters into good shooters.

Learn to shoot well with iron sights and learn to shoot well with lasers. It isn't the same thing.

I am a big fan of Crimson Trace Lasers but if it's too dark to identify the target you also need a good bright flashlight.

Hanging a light/laser, like a Streamlight, on a gun adds size, bulk and a little weight but if that doesn't interfere with how you are using the gun, IMO it's a great setup.

It's said that 70% of defense shootings take place in low light buy few shooters have the chance to practice shooting in the dark.

Personally I've found that (after a little practice) I'm faster and more accurate point shooting with a laser equipped gun than I am using iron sights.

I've tried it and in my case a man that knew how to use his laser equipped gun would easily put three shots in me before I could line up my night sights and flashlight on him.
But I don't practice with flashlight and night sights.

With a little practice you can expect better than this when using the laser (unless you have 69 year old eyes also).

 

[AK103K]

Any of my pistols I might carry, and anymore, any that I buy new, have Meprolights on them. Night sights are a must have as far as I'm concerned, and rank #1 over any other sight, light, or laser. It doesnt need to be "dark" to be glad you have the night sights, a dark target, or dim light where you can still see the target, but not the sights, is no longer a problem. I do have a Streamlight M3 light on one of my P226's, and it works well and is very easy to access and shoot with. The night sight/light combo is the better choice over the light laser.

I had one of the Insight combo laser/lights for a little while and hated it. For me, the laser was very distracting and you would have thought Katherine Hepburn was holding the gun if you watched the dot on the target.

The first thing I noticed with the thing was "sensory overload" when I tried to shoot with it. My problem was confusion as what to look at when the gun came up. What happens is, your right eye sees the sights and your left eye sees the dot, and they are not in the same place on the target due to what your left eye sees, parallax, and the difference in zero of the dot. If your accustomed to shooting a certain way, you will need to make some changes in how you shoot if you go that route.

I never noticed that the zero of the dot changed if I removed it and replaced it. If it did, it wasnt very much.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I had one of the Insight combo laser/lights for a little while and hated it. For me, the laser was very distracting and you would have thought Katherine Hepburn was holding the gun if you watched the dot on the target.

The first thing I noticed with the thing was "sensory overload" when I tried to shoot with it. My problem was confusion as what to look at when the gun came up. What happens is, your right eye sees the sights and your left eye sees the dot, and they are not in the same place on the target due to what your left eye sees, parallax, and the difference in zero of the dot. If your accustomed to shooting a certain way, you will need to make some changes in how you shoot if you go that route.

AK103K, you are doing what probably most people do. You attempted to use the laser without knowing what you were doing. About everything you said above is incorrect laser use.
If you get the chance get someone that knows what they are doing show you the proper use. You might be surprised how accurate and fast it is.

 

[AK103K]

Maybe my problem was more me than the laser. It was plenty accurate, when used alone, but you have to look at the dot and not the sights. My problem is/was, its so ingrained into my brain to look for that front sight, especially at a distance you would normally use the sights, that it became confusing when the dot wasnt where the sights were.

I'm sure if I spent a lot of time and more effort with them, I could probably get things worked out, but I quickly lost patience with it, and I just didnt see that there was really an advantage over what I already have that works.

I've also tried one on a couple of long guns with the basically the same results, a good red dot works much better and more naturally for me, as all things line up and I only have to worry about looking at the target and not at or for the dot.

Hey, if it works for you, great, I'll wait till they get them all to line up.

Just curious, but what is the "correct" way to use them?

 

[M2 Carbine]

Some shooters have a little trouble adjusting to the laser.
One friend, who's a good shot, liked the laser but the extra switch was distracting him too much. Then a few days ago it just clicked and he went through 5-6 mags doing very well.

Just curious, but what is the "correct" way to use them?

I'm not a laser expert, I just shoot them a lot, so I won't say what I do is necesserally "correct" but this works for me.

Use either the laser or the iron sights. Not both.
If it's low light or dark I use the laser, laser/light.
It's just an automatic thing, iron sights in daylight, laser late in the evening.

When aiming with two hands, bring the gun up to below eye level, about chin high. This gives you a good view of the target and the laser dot.

I like to point the gun before turning on the laser.
Like one motion, aim, light laser while squeezing.
I also practice with the gun as low belt high.

Work on looking at the target, not the laser dot. Keep your attention on the target and you will naturally bring the dot to where you are looking. This is fast and accurate.

What people want to do is look at the dot and move the dot to the target.
This is slow and distracting and causes "chasing" the dot around.

Using night sights you still have to aim, having the gun in front of your face.
With the laser, accurate fast shots can be made with the gun held in different hands and different positions.

Don't shine the laser around like a flashlight. Unless using it as intimidation the laser shouldn't be turned on until just before firing. (course how the laser is used depends on the situation).

Practice with the laser whenever possible.
Just like iron sights, the more practice the better.

 

[zeroskillz]

I've got CT grip on my carry gun and love them.
I think the laser can help wit hlearning to a degree,--it definately gives you an instant impression of which way you are moving the gun off target...

Also comes in handy for wives to feel like they're doing well on their first trip to the range

 

[glockman19]

I like the CTC laser grips in any gun. Rifles only a good scope and maybe a night vision scope if necessary. I don't expect to do alot of night shooting even in a SHTF scenereo I don't want to give my position away any more than the Flash.

 

[Shawn Michael]

So you can take the take TLR-2 setups off the gun without losing the accuracy?

Great info I appreciate it.

 

[MartinBrody]

I have a TLR-2 on my Sig 226 and really like it. At first I thought it was a little over the top but I like the features like momentary or constant off/on, and being able to only use light/laser or both. I take it off my gun all the time and it does not change it's zero. I do also keep a separate flashlight so if I just need light I am not pointing a gun around. On the range I shoot better with the laser on, and always use it at the range as this is how I will be using it at home.

I only have one gun with night sights, I have nothing against them, but in the day they are useless and at night I feel if I need them to see my sights how well can I ID my target. Just my opinion, I'm sure lots of people would disagree.

 

[BullfrogKen]

We've done testing and evaluation in our Group with night sight equipped pistols, those with standard iron sights, and gold bead front sighting systems. Darkness ranged from dim but still enough to see, to total and complete darkness.

We've found that night sights tend to slow the untrained shooter. Meaning - if you install night sights, expect to have to put in a couple thousand rounds downrange in darkness before they actually become beneficial and not detrimental. Those shooters without that training took anywhere from a half a second to 2 seconds longer to pull the trigger.

Using the iron sights, we simply indexed the gun by feel and had acceptable shot placement at distances under 7 yards.

The gold beads allowed us to do better up to and including 10 yards in any setting when even a little light was present, as the gold beads reflected even the tiniest amount of ambient light. In total darkness we simply indexed just as with the standard iron sight.

In total darkness the glowing sights overwhelm the eye, and it made seeing anything downrange beyond those sights impossible. In dim light the untrained shooter seemed to hesitate to dress up the sights, instead of simply seeing what was "good enough" and pulling the trigger.


Far from the benefit usually ascribed to them, we've seen night sights are generally detrimental to untrained shooters. They do allow for more precise shot placement, but at the cost of time. In defensive shooting situations, that time might not be available. Only after sufficient low light shooting practice with night sight systems does the shooter learn to disregard those sights to "see what he needs to see to make the shot."

 

[Caimlas]

I have a friend who has a similar setup to what MartinBrody has, but with an XD45 - but with a different light (I think it's a surefire). He regularly hunts coyotes with it. I'm not sure if it's stock or modification, but the light casts a diamond pattern, sort of like an improvised corsshair. He says that if he just centers the diamond on the COM of hte animal, he's invariably able to hit it.

That's what I'd do. I think lasers are gimicky (thought not completely without function), and I personally think night sights are more a distraction than they are useful (at least on a pistol). Chances are you're going to point shoot in a SD situation anyway - or, at least, I know I will, because that's how I've trained and it's what a person's body will naturally acclimate to when "fight or flight" kicks in: focus on target and square off.

A laser with a good light "co-witnessing" your target might be a good setup, though. I'd forgo night sights - they've got a high cost/benefit.

 

[Shawn Michael]

Martin B...thanks, good to know that the zero does not go off...kind of amazing but that is great I dont want to keep it on all the time.

Now the problem is the switches. I am mounting one of these on a TRR8 revolver and the length of hte barrle places the switches off the shooting platform...I guess they have pressure switches to accomodate for that?

 

[Shawn Michael]

Ken, thanks for great info. The TRR8 has a brass bead on the front, I really like it and was not looking forward to changing it.

Again, I appreciate all the replies, good stuff

 

[M2 Carbine]

This turned out good for inexpensive laser/light practice.
I mounted a Weaver rail under my Ruger 22/45 barrel.

Even though I hand load my 38, 45 and 40S&W ammo it's still much cheaper shooting 22LR.

The gun/light is handy when walking around the place at night.
Every couple evenings I'll run a box or so of 22LR through the Ruger, practicing with the laser. I've found the laser/light combination in almost total darkness is a great setup. It's very fast point shooting multiple targets and totally accurate, back to about 25 yards.



The nightstand gun. CZ40P.