No receipt at gunshow, should I worry?

[Animal Mother]

This past weekend I bought an AR-15 lower from a dealer at the local gunshow. Unfortunately, I paid cash and did not get a receipt. My father witnessed the transaction, although neither him nor myself can remember the name of the dealer. I have a GFL so although I filled out a 4473, they didn't have to call it in. Should I be concerned that if questioned by law enforcement that I cannot produce a proof of purchase?

Also, with the potential that we might see a renewal of the AWB, I'd like to prove that I purchased this receiver before the ban (I will assemble it myself into a rifle before the ban takes effect) although the serial number should help in proving it was manufactured before the ban, what are the steps that other AR-15 kit builders are taking to ensure that they can prove their kit gun was assembled before similar bans took effect? (assuming of course that pre-existing AR-15s are grandfathered in)

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Take a picture of it, including the serial #'s and mail it to yourself.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Take a picture of it, including the serial #'s and mail it to yourself.

Mailing something to yourself, the so-called "Poor man's copyright", doesn't prove anything in court and is easily faked.

I wouldn't worry about it. The burden of proof likely won't be on you to show when it was purchased.

 

[kingpin008]

I wouldn't worry about it. The burden of proof likely won't be on you to show when it was purchased.

EXACTLY. People don't realize, that if a cop randomly walked up to you and tried to arrest you for some sort of gun violation, they need PROOF. They can haul you in all they want, but without a REASON, they're screwed. To be able to arrest you for that lower (if they suspected it to be stolen/illegal/etc) they'd need more than "well, it's probably illegal" to do a damn thing.

No worries. YOU don't have to prove your legality. THEY have to prove the crime, should they wish to charge you with one.

 

[kingpin008]

And that's correct, about the "poor man's copyright". In some cases it does have legal standing, but those cases mainly have to do with copyright laws, not something like this. The idea behind the "poor man's copyright" is to ensure that one's written works can be proven to be originals if stolen before publication takes place. The author has a dated copy of the material, sealed in an envelope with a dated postmark. Any other claimant to the material must prove that theirs pre-dates it.

Even in these kinds of cases, the "poor man's copyright" isn't always a legit solution. I can take a pic of my guns, pop it into an envelope and mail it to myself all day, but that is NOT proof that I bought the gun on that date.

 

[MAKster]

serial number

If there ever was another ban and you had to prove a gun was pre ban, I'm sure that every manufacturer would know by heart the serial number cut off for their pre and post ban guns.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Part of what you want, I think, is the comfort that comes from doing whatever you can do at this point. That's not an unreasonable desire. And you might be able to work up at least the presumption of ownership.

Get someone to take a digital photo of you holding the gun, today's newspaper, and possibly even the postmarked envelope of a bill or letter addressed to you. Then photograph the gun so its serial number is legible (highlight it with a crayon if necessary), and photograph the newspaper so the headline and date on its front page are visible and evidently the same one you held up in the "group photo," and then photograph the postmarked envelope addressed to you. Use a high quality digital camera.

Print out at least three excellent copies of all those photos.

Next write a brief memo explaining how and where you bought the gun, how you paid and how much, and whatever else you remember that could be relevant ("The seller told me his name was 'Ahmed.' ... He was wearing a yellow turban and had bananas in his ears. ... He had a foreign accent. ... He wore a "Hillary for President" button on his dashiki). Sign and date at least three printed copies.

Put two of each set in sealed envelopes (two different envelopes) addressed to you and with a note saying "Proof of purchase--Serial Number XXXXXXX--October 30, 2007" in the front left hand corner of each envelope. Mail both of those envelopes to yourself "Registered: Return Receipt Requested."

When the two envelopes and the two receipts arrive put all of them and your third set of copies in a big envelope and stow it in your safety deposit box. No safety deposit box? Use your gun safe. Figure it out: you want it safe and available in case of need.

The reason for all those copies: the third copy (no envelope) is to show your lawyer what's in the sealed envelopes; the second copy (in the postmarked envelope) is to give him for possible use should the need arise; the third copy (in the other postmarked envelope) is to keep so you are not out of luck when he loses the copy you already gave him.

Can't hurt. Might help.

 

[Animal Mother]

Thanks guys, I had been thinking of doing something along the lines of the "poor man's copywright" but I wasn't sure if it would be of any use. I'll keep an eye out for this guy the next time a show comes around as he had a real professional setup with lots of help, so I imagine he'll be back.

 

[Outlaws]

I don't have a receipt for any gun I own, and I don't care.

 

[45Badger]

I don't have a receipt for any gun I own, and I don't care.

Bingo! I don't have a receipt for anything I own, except for warranty coverage stuff. When the warranty goes away, the paperwork hits the shredder.

The law and common sense presume that I am innocent. Since I am not a known felon (or thief, or "fence"), I figure that the "probable cause" issue and facts (I did not steal anything) will keep me covered from all but the most malicious prosecution.

Not worth spending more than 20 seconds worrying about. To me, the "worrying" is running scared of an anti-gun agenda, and buying in to the notion that you actually need to prove your right to gun ownership. That mindset gives their ideas traction and power. Do we feel we need to provide proof of ownership for hammers? lawnmowers? engagement rings?

As a personal property matter, why is a gun any different?

 

[wdlsguy]

If push comes to shove, BATFE can trace the receiver through the manufacturer, distributor and dealer. You could always show up at the next show and try to get a receipt after the fact. You could also ask the manufacturer for a history letter. A history letter may cost you a few dollars.

 

[Robert Hairless]

New Orleans is requiring proof of ownership by people whose guns it confiscated during Katrina as a condition of their return. From time to time I hear of other police that confiscate firearms from those found with them unless they can prove ownership. And, of course, if a firearm is stolen an insurance company will require documentation as a condition of payment and so will police departments that recover the stolen property.

 

[mbt2001]

Put it on your insurance... They keep records and it is proof of ownership.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Good idea, mbt2001.

 

[Outlaws]

New Orleans is requiring proof of ownership by people whose guns it confiscated during Katrina as a condition of their return. From time to time I hear of other police that confiscate firearms from those found with them unless they can prove ownership. And, of course, if a firearm is stolen an insurance company will require documentation as a condition of payment and so will police departments that recover the stolen property.

Didn't the police give them a receipt saying what they took, or at least wrote down the serial number in the incident report? I don't know why you would tell the police to start with, but that is just my kooky side.

 

[Shipwreck]

It is too dangerous to keep that part - U need to throw it away or send it to me

 

[Manan]

What gun? Who me?

 

[Tommygunn]

Quote:
Take a picture of it, including the serial #'s and mail it to yourself.

Mailing something to yourself, the so-called "Poor man's copyright", doesn't prove anything in court and is easily faked.

I wouldn't worry about it. The burden of proof likely won't be on you to show when it was purchased.

Send the letter to yourself, then when you receive it, DON'T OPEN IT. The cancelled stamp will show the date, and it will be evidence you can use in court, assuming a new ban allows "grandfathered" possessions. If it doesn't we're all s*****d anyway.

A "poor man's copyright" may not prove you bought it on a specific date, but that's not the point in this instance; it's to prove you owned it prior to a theoretical date which is (as I write this) in the future.
IMHO, if it doesn't work; we're in deep kimshee to the point where we have far more serious problems than proving we owned what, whenever.

 

[Robert Hairless]

I am sorry I offended you. I forgot that everyone who owns a firearm is a free loader unless they belong to the NRA. Did they tell you to think that?

Nope, you didn't offend me at all. No need to apologize.

When I was much younger I enjoyed exploring New York City, including the Bowery, which at that time was populated by bums who would approach people for handouts so they could buy booze. Many of them cursed and spat at people who didn't give them money.

Driving along Canal Street right off the Manhattan Bridge the traffic was bumper to bumper then. The bums would come out with dirty rags and make as if to wipe the car windows unless they got a few coins to get them to go away. If a driver was stubborn and didn't give one of those bums money even after he took a few swipes at the windshield, the bum was irate and argued that he did not get paid for his work.

So, no, you didn't offend me at all. Internet forums are relatively easy. Just press the down arrow key and it's over. Enjoy your day.

 

[.cheese.]

what if the above situation involved high-cap magazines?

I've wondered about this too actually. I keep all of my receipts for this reason, but wonder if one or two may have gotten misplaced or thrown away from carelessness (I pay cash for gun stuff so there are no CC#'s to worry about). Chances are I haven't because I'm fairly careful - but I do wonder about this "what if" scenario.

On one hand, yeah the cops need to prove a crime to charge you with anything criminal, but couldn't they confiscate something if you don't have proof that it was purchased before X date?

I want to say no, but at the same time I can totally see it happening.

 

[Autolycus]

I wouldnt worry to much about it. But I would perhaps try to get a reciept at the next show.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

A "poor man's copyright" may not prove you bought it on a specific date, but that's not the point in this instance; it's to prove you owned it prior to a theoretical date which is (as I write this) in the future.

The point is that the postmark on sealed envelope means nothing. I can lick one tiny spot on the enveloper, mail it to myself to get the postmark, cut that spot carefully, and now I have an unsealed postmarked envelope with I can fill at any later day with anything I want, seal and claim that the contents were in there on the date it was mailed.

There are a number of easy ways that one can get a unsealed and postmarked envelope. Too many to rely on it as a defense.

 

[Tommygunn]

And I suppose no one can prove you cut out that spot and phonied it???
I know the CSI shows are hype, but I should think there would be some capability to determine frauds....which would be up to the prosecution anyway since that's where the burden of proof lies.
I'm not saying it's the BEST defense ... just that it should serve as one.