No surplus ammo thru M1A SOCOM?

[LooseGrouper]

I recently bought a new SOCOM and have been having some ammo problems. The expensive match stuff shoots/extracts/cycles just fine, but the South Af surplus I've been using is constantly giving me failure-to-extracts. I bought some of the nasty Chineese, steel-jacketed stuff. It would still fail to extract on occassion (every 5th round), but was WAY easier to unjam than the South Af stuff. Then I was told that the Chineese surplus was really not good to use.

I took it to a gunsmith who looked it over for me. He checked headspacing, extractor tension, etc, and couldn't find anything wrong. My last option was to call Springfield. By this point, I'm slightly miffed at the performance of my $1500 rifle.

When talking to a customer service rep, I told her that my rifle wouldn't fire the South Af stuff. She said that they had a list of recommended ammo: Remington this, Federal that, TAP, Blackhills, yada yada yada, ....no surplus mentioned. She sounded slightly appauled that I wanted to use surplus. When I explained to her that I was not happy having a military-decended rifle that had to be fed $1.25-a-pop ammo she suggested that I call back tomorrow and speak to a rifle tech (they had already left for the day).

So, am I asking too much? Does anyone have any similar experiences? If the South Af ammo is bad, does anyone know where I can get some of the Australian I've been hearing such good things about?

I love the look, feel, and handling of the M1A, but if I can't get this surplus ammo shennanigans solved, I'm jumping ship. Those DSA FAL carbines are starting to whisper my name...

LG

 

[Beethoven]

I've read that the SOCOM uses a different gas system than the other M1A's in order to attain the shorter bbl length.

I wonder if that could be the problem?

 

[ocabj]

Did you try anything else like the Portuguese or Australian surplus?

When talking to a customer service rep, I told her that my rifle wouldn't fire the South Af stuff. She said that they had a list of recommended ammo: Remington this, Federal that, TAP, Blackhills, yada yada yada, ....no surplus mentioned. She sounded slightly appauled that I wanted to use surplus. When I explained to her that I was not happy having a military-decended rifle that had to be fed $1.25-a-pop ammo she suggested that I call back tomorrow and speak to a rifle tech (they had already left for the day).

I'm sure Springfield isn't going to recommend any surplus ammunition simply because of liability reasons. They'll only want to recommend modern manufacturered factory ammunition. As far as it being a military-decended (sic) rifle, while it is based on the M14, the shortened barrel means a shortened gas system, so the rifle is going to perform differently than a standard M14 spec rifle.

 

[Onmilo]

South African consistantly fails to extract in my Bush rifle too.
It functions just fine in my full size rifles so I think it has something to do with the pressure curve of the cartridge in a short barrel rifle.
Portugese surplus and Lake City surplus function in my Bush rifle.
I have a chrome silicone recoil spring that I have trimmed two coils from that I intend to try with South African ammunition next time out.
It may correct the short cycle but I won't want to use it with the other cartridges.

Rem UMC promo fmj, Winchester Q load and one box of TAP ammunition run just fine in my rifle.
Federal 168 Match runs too but it is too pricey for informal target shooting.

 

[LooseGrouper]

I haven't tried any of the Aussie/Port stuff, but I'd like to. Anyone know where I can get it?

I wondered about the short barrel length/gas system thing too. I'll ask my gunsmith friend if there's any way he can check for that.

ocabj,

1) thanks for the spellcheck , 2) I see your point about it not being "Military." I was just trying to express the idea that its an offense/defense rifle that should put reliability over everything and shoot pretty much any ammo that meets spec.

 

[Ivy Mike]

2) I see your point about it not being "Military." I was just trying to express the idea that its an offense/defense rifle that should put reliability over everything and shoot pretty much any ammo that meets spec.

You mean like an SKS
*zips up flame suit*

Actually, what is the rifle chambered for? .308 or 7.62 NATO?
Maybe thats got something to do with it?

:dunno:

 

[The Drew]

try some aussie or US lake city stuff... That seems to be about the best surplus... I have fewer issues with those than the cheaper stuff... Of course I have a POS...er, I mean CIA CETME

 

[ocabj]

1) thanks for the spellcheck , 2) I see your point about it not being "Military." I was just trying to express the idea that its an offense/defense rifle that should put reliability over everything and shoot pretty much any ammo that meets spec.

I wasn't trying to patronize you about it not being military, at all. What I was trying to theorize was that maybe, then SA designed the SOCOM, they designed/optimized the gas system for modern commercial .308 ammunition/ballistics. Didn't mean to be condescending.

Actually, what is the rifle chambered for? .308 or 7.62 NATO?
Maybe thats got something to do with it?

SA's site states that it is chambered for 7.62NATO, but I doubt that really means anything. The chamber may be reamed for 7.62 NATO specifications, but who knows what type of ammunition pressures/velocities the gas system was designed for by SA R&D.

 

[jefnvk]

By this point, I'm slightly miffed at the performance of my $1500 rifle.

I look at this a bit differently. I think a $1500 comemrcial rifle should have a bit different than milsurp shot throught it. JMHO.

My guiess would be being chambered for .308, being a commercial rifle, but the site lists both

 

[Ivy Mike]

I too noticed that they list 7.62 NATO and then stick .308 after it.

odd unless they are trying to not confuse the average person who thinks they are the same round.

What is stamped on the rifle itself?

 

[LooseGrouper]

The barrel is marked ".308"

Their literature and the folks manning the customer service lines approve both, but highly discourage steel cases and bullets over 180 gr.

jefnvk

I disagree. I use the same theory as I would use with my P226 or a Glock 19. I'm not looking for match accuracy. If I'm using them for serious business, then I'll load them with the absolute best stuff I can find. However, I still want them to feed, fire, and extract any ammo that meets min/max 9x19 specs.

Would you feel comfortable calling a rifle "reliable" if it FTEs every 3rd round with good quality surplus ammo? I don't mean that as a wisecrack. I'm really asking. Since I've established the FTE pattern, it makes me wonder if/when it may do the same thing with the "good stuff" eventually.

 

[jefnvk]

That is your opinion, and it is a good one. I can see the validity of expecting i tto shoot any ammo.

Now, as for the .308/7.62, how does that go. I think it is OK to fire 7.62 in a .308, but not the other way.

 

[ocabj]

I disagree. I use the same theory as I would use with my P226 or a Glock 19. I'm not looking for match accuracy. If I'm using them for serious business, then I'll load them with the absolute best stuff I can find. However, I still want them to feed, fire, and extract any ammo that meets min/max 9x19 specs.

Would you feel comfortable calling a rifle "reliable" if it FTEs every 3rd round with good quality surplus ammo? I don't mean that as a wisecrack. I'm really asking. Since I've established the FTE pattern, it makes me wonder if/when it may do the same thing with the "good stuff" eventually.

The issue isn't that the rifle is only supposed to shoot "the good stuff". The issue is that the rifle might be designed to operate using the pressures produced by modern commercial .308 ammunition and not 7.62 NATO surplus. This is what I've been reiterating in my previous posts. The gas system on the M1 and M14 are very specific regarding the pressures necessary to produce reliable operation of the oprod and action. SA had to design the oprod to function within a range of pressures and more than likely used commercial ammunition pressures as the baseline.

This is why you should try some other surplus such as the Austrian, Port, USGI, and even Hirtenberger if you can find it (I have still have some stockpiled myself in an ammocan somewhere in my house). If it works with other surplus besides the South African, then that's great. If not, then grab boxes of some commercial PMC, Winchester, Remington, etc. If it works with the commercial, then you know 7.62 NATO surplus isn't producing the appropriate pressures to operate the rifle reliably. But even then all is not lost if 7.62 surplus doesn't work in your SOCOM. You can always reload on the cheap for it (but a reloading rant is reserved for another thread...).

Of course, we are assuming that everything in the rifle is in full functioning order (extractor, ejector, springs, oprod spring, etc) since you already had a smith look at it.

Now, as for the .308/7.62, how does that go. I think it is OK to fire 7.62 in a .308, but not the other way.

Well, according to the NATO and SAAMI specs, using 7.62 in 308 can be dangerous, but according to Fulton Armory, no one makes 7.62 NATO that isn't within the .308 safe headspace range.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm

 

[jefnvk]

I thought it was the opposite of 5.56, where the commercial is safe in the mil chamber, but not vice versa.

These guys: http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html say that a .308 has a max pressure of 62,000, and the 7.62 is 50,000, making it unsafe to fire .308 in a 7.62 chamber.

I'm now confused. I'd clarify what it is chambered for, and use only that, until you can get someone who knows for sure what is the story.

 

[Well Regulated]

Send it back to Springfield, it's the gun

I have previously posted the same problem with my M1A Loaded. It failed to extract Aussie ammo only then one day it started on Lake City. It took two trips to Springfield to fix. I have fired 100 rounds of Aussie and so far no failures to extract. Here is what had to be done to get it to work so far. New bolt headspaced to 1.632. New Gas cylinder, new Op rod spring, new extractor, new ejector spring. You can feel and see a difference. More smoke is coming out of the front end of the barrel, the spent cartridges are being ejected to the same place every time and much farther than before. Peviously I would have a cartridge extract and fly in a different direction. And finally you can hear the bolt smartly snap into battery. Huge difference, but it took to trips. Send them the spent casing that failed to extract as evidence. Send them the firearm just as you left the fireing line. They shoulf be able to figure out the problem. It's most likely the gun, not the ammo.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Thanks Well Regulated

I'm planning to call and talk to them again this morning.

 

[okbow68]

I am not positive but am pretty sure that 7.62 NATO is loaded to higher pressures than commercial 308 winchester. Sounds to me like you might have to send the rifle in and let them tweak it just a little. I have a Socom and it will eat anything commercial or surplus that I try to put through it. Good luck let us know what they say.

 

[Onmilo]

I know that my Bush rifle has well over 5000 rounds fired through it.
The headspace is 1.635" and the throat erosion is currently 4.
South African is the only surplus that the rifle has burped on and since South African Mil-Spec 7.62 NATO was designed to be mainly run in FN and G3 rifles I am thinking the load specification calls for a different pressure curve than other 7.62 surplus and this leads to malfunction in some semi-automatic rifles using shorter than average barrel lengths.
However G3 rifles use a barrel length similar than the Bush rifle 18" and I have had no malfunctions with South African in mine, so,,,,,,

I had a similar discussion on another board about 5.56 NATO Radway Green.
Another poster complained that it didn't function reliably in AR15 rifles, specifically M4 carbines using 14.5" barrel length, and I had to disagree since it runs just fine in all my ARs, but all my AR rifles are 16" or longer barrelled...

I suppose some rifles will just refuse to run some ammunition, no matter how perfect the manufacturer feels they produced that ammunition.

 

[Brer Bear]

Commercial .308 has higher pressure than 7.62 X 51. The head space on your rifle is most likely in the range to accomodate both commercial and mil-spec ammo. If it failed to extract, have you inspected the extractor and the rim of the cartridge? You could have a tight chamber (due to the compromise between commercial & milsurp ammo), Do you have a rough chamber, or a dirty chamber?...

 

[glockenstein]

I have a SOCOM M1A and only use surplus aussie and Radway Green (British) through it. I have had no trouble at all. I have never tried the South African stuff. I used to have trouble with the Port in my old standard M1A.

 

[bogie]

If it was loaded for a machinegun, or is otherwise "out of spec" you could seriously damage stuff.

My suggestion is that you look at handloading.

 

[Onmilo]

To paraphrase.
'Out of spec surplus stuff could seriously damage stuff.'

To Quote;
"My suggestion is that you look at handloading."

In no way meant to be rude but I have personally seen, repaired, and sent in for repair to the manufacturers, many many more firearms damaged from poor handloads than bad surplus ammunition.

 

[AZ Jeff]

It never fails to amaze me how many guys buy expensive (and $1.5K or more is expensive, in my book) rifles and then feed them swill bucket bottom of the barrel surplus ammo.

Now before everyone jumps all over me, I KNOW that there is a lot of VERY GOOD surplus ammo out there. There is also a lot of garbage. The difference between good and garbage often has nothing to do with WHO made it, but ALL to do with how it was STORED/HANDLED after being made.

Want good performance from your rifle? Feed it good ammo.

Personally, I handload virtually ALL my ammo. I feel I can create ammo that is as good or better than that which you can buy. Then again, I have been handloading for 30+ years, and have learned a lot by doing so, so it's not a recent foray for me.

 

[sixtyKaday]

I've used Santa Barbara, South African, some Lake City and some hot Brazilian CBC in my SOCOM without a hitch. I've also shot a bunch of my reloads out of it with no troubles. I mostly use surplus because its cheap and I have a good supply of it. It lets me shoot a lot more than factory or reloads. I shy away from the crappy stuff, and its not to hard to figure out which is good and which is crappy these days. I've yet to have any of the surplus shoot badly and some, like the Santa Barbara is damn near match quality. My reloads are 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips over 4064. They shoot to the same point of aim as the Santa Barbara at 100 yards and are very accurate. They also are more destructive than ball and and make good hunting or anti personnel rounds.

 

[MechAg94]

I have a standard M1A from Springfield. I couldn't tell you the origin of my surplus .308. I had to take it off links. I never had any problems with it. It is decently accurate for me. My Dad's older M1A's made by others do fine with the same surplus.