Non hollow point self defense ammo.......

Kleanbore said:
Interesting graphics. illustrative of nothing real. Advertising--what would we expect?
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It's illustrative of how the the bullet's rotation isn't what actually does the work of wounding. And from what I saw up thread apparently some people were very confused about that. I did try to explain, but for those who didn't grasp my explanation, there is fortunately a CGI video of how the flutes work. So there it is, and hopefully it adds some clarity.

Also, if one were to search around, they could find images and video showing the results of those four flutes and the jets coming from them in gelatin blocks. And before you go into the "how gelatin is interpreted" spiel again.. that's not my point in mentioning it. My point is that the effect is evident, in the gel blocks. The four deep lacerations in a gel block can be seen, and they must have come from somewhere. The only logical conclusion is that they came from the flutes. We can also see that they rotate around the axis (bullet's path) at something approximating the twist rate of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
 
WrongHanded said:
It's illustrative of how the the bullet's rotation isn't what actually does the work of wounding.
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Why would anyone draw any conlusions from an animated cartoon from the manufacturer?

WrongHanded said:
Also, if one were to search around, they could find images and video showing the results of those four flutes and the jets coming from them in gelatin blocks.
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None of the ones that I have seen show a permanent would channel that compares to that of premium service rounds.

How about some objective, independent, repeatable tests conducted in calibrated ballistic gel?

It does appear that there is sufficient evidence to show that those bullets do limit maximum penetration.

I think it would be interesting to conduct a valid jury simulation experiment to see whether the appearance of the bullets would be more likely to cause jurors to attribute the selection of those rounds to a possible mens rea issue than would standard ammunition.

Of course, if they were to succeed in one or more source selection competitions, that would help their credibility immensely..
 
Kleanbore said:
How about some objective, independent, repeatable tests conducted in calibrated ballistic gel?
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What would that prove, when the jelly experts claim anything not deemed to be a crush cavity is rejected as damage that wouldn't result in living tissue? You can't use gelatin to determine wounding potential when you exclude damage done to the gelatin because it doesn't fit the narrative.
 
WrongHanded said:
What would that prove, when the jelly experts claim anything not deemed to be a crush cavity is rejected as damage that wouldn't result in living tissue? You can't use gelatin to determine wounding potential when you exclude damage done to the gelatin because it doesn't fit the narrative.
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Calibrated ballistic gel is formulated to closely match the characteristics of freshly killed swine, which is considered to be closely comparable to human tissue.

Calibrated ballistic gel tests are a well established and widely accepted method for evaluation minimum and maximum penetration and wounding effects in human tissue.

It is used in ammunition development and in product qualification and acceptance.

If course, independent, scientifically conducted testing is essential.

It is what has been lacking here.

Personally, I cannot become very interested in what the test results look like for that ammunition that I use. I only care wither it has met, in independent ,objective testing, the requirements set by law enforcement users. One exception--I do not insist on it's passing all of the prescribed barrier tests.

I think a lot of people tend to put far too much emphasis on the minutia of comparative terminal ballistic performance.
 
Kleanbore said:
Calibrated ballistic gel is formulated to closely match the characteristics of freshly killed swine, which is considered to be closely comparable to human tissue.

Calibrated ballistic gel tests are a well established and widely accepted method for evaluation minimum and maximum penetration and wounding effects in human tissue.

It is used in ammunition development and in product qualification and acceptance.

If course, independent, scientifically conducted testing is essential.

It is what has been lacking here.

Personally, I cannot become very interested in what the test results look like for that ammunition that I use. I only care wither it has met, in independent ,objective testing, the requirements set by law enforcement users. One exception--I do not insist on it's passing all of the prescribed barrier tests.

I think a lot of people tend to put far too much emphasis on the minutia of comparative terminal ballistic performance.
Click to expand...

There actually was such testing done, as what was described as a Joint Department something or other. I seem to remember the results were heavily in favor of the Xtreme Defender. Then quickly excuses were made about how it must be fake.

I think it's the middle one: https://viperweapons.us/ballistics-testing-1
 
Kleanbore you haven't really provided anything but your opinion.

WrongHanded has provided his opinion and additional information that includes testing.

My opinion has been created by actually taking game animals with bullets that don't rely on expansion to create damage. They can work well and cause a lot of damage.

I carry hollow points to reduce liability.
Real world - old fashion wadcutters and hard ball have worked for centuries.
There is a lot of positives about XD and XP bullets and the physics that makes them work!

If you want to carry Hornady polymer tips do that. If you don't open your eyes and your mind you may miss out on something new that works better.
 
Black Hills Ammunition has some pictures of bullet paths through gel blocks. You can see round nose bullets tend to yaw in the medium, while flat nose bullets run a straighter track.

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/45-acp/#

Jeff Cooper was a fan of truncated cone bullets, a flat nose ball round, similar to a semi-wadcutter. He believed this bullet shape was an improvement over round nose ball ammo.

There was a hunting bullet maker that used to have an article on the physics of this bullet shape in hunting round performance through flesh, but they have lost the links to that article.
 
Ks5shooter said:
Carry RN bullets now in my G48,G27 and G30sf.Nj laws are terrible.Keep info coming for now RN bullets will do.Lots to digest here.
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D&L Sports has this bullet, a .45 Cal, 200gr round nose bullet with a "cutting shoulder". I think this bullet style is only available in .45 Auto, as far as I can tell. I don't think it is available in loaded ammunition, though.

https://www.dlsports.com/dl-45-acp-bullet.html
 
DDDWho said:
When the 1911 was invented there still existed an equestrian cavalry. The 230 ball was designed to shoot through a horse. Decent carry ammo I would say
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Cool! I can tell people I have a horse gun! I like it. :)
If a horse, so also a moose? Probably not a bear.
 
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