Non reloader reloading question.

[epijunkie67]

I don't reload but was just wondering about something and figured this would be the place to ask. I've heard people talk about round to round variation in performance in longer cased cartridges due to "the powder sitting more to the back against the primer or toward the front against the bullet."

1st. Is this true?
2nd. If it is true could you use some type of soft, collapsible packing between the bullet and the powder as a space filler to give more consistent performance? Kind of like the patches black powder shooters put between the powder and ball. Assuming it was something like cotton (Just an example) it shouldn't have more of an effect than just firing the weapon with it pointed straight up. Should it?

I know, silly questions but satisfy my morbid curiosity.

 

[halvey]

1) kind of. I use Bullseye and it doesn't make a difference.
But my friend used Int'l Clays and he used filler and it did help performance.
Lesson: Use Bullseye!

2) tissue paper works best, is cheap, is easy to use and if outdoors decomposes quickly.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. Yes, there is a definite effect, especially with fast burning smokeless powder in black powder cartridges from .38 Special to .45-70. I got over 100 fps difference in velocity depending on whether the powder was at the bullet or at the primer in .44-40.

2. There have been all sorts of fillers and wads used over the years. Tissue paper, kapok, dacron, cotton, granular plastic, cream of wheat, foam plastic, etc, etc. Some work great, some have lead to "ringed" chambers where a wad apparently slams into the base of the bullet so hard as to bulge brass and barrel. The bad part is, some fillers have done both; worked well in one gun, damaged another.

 

[fecmech]

I don't know about 44-40's but it is not a problem I've ever seen in a .38 , .44spec. .44 mag with Bullseye or 231. I load rn and swc in the .38 with Bullseye and swc in the .44spec and .44 mag with 231. I shoot 12 shot strings when chrongraphing. The Bullseye loads have an extrem spread of 26 fps and a standard deviation of 11 fps, the 231 in the .44 runs ES 45 fps and SD 16 fps. My $.02 Nick

 

[Nortonics]

Your observations are correct. You'll often find that the most consistent velocities and accuracy are achieved when the powder choice fills the cartridge right to the bottom of the seated bullet. There are powders that do excel at being fast with a small charge without the velocity difference associated with some, such a Hodgdon's TiteGroup:

Unlike pistol powders of the past, powder position in large cases (45 Colt, 357 Magnum and others) has virtually no effect on velocity and performance.

Hodgdon Shotgun & Pistol Powders

 

[griz]

1. Yes, the effect is there with some conditions. Unless you compare shots where the muzzle is down before firing (as it would be in the holster) to "level" shots there isn't much difference even in worst case situations. Here is a thread related to it.

2. Like Jim Watson said, just about everything has been tried and success has varied with all of them.

 

[jessej]

powder quantities

Just a note from an old-timer, if you are specifically asking about pistol cartridge loads, the amount of powder in a case, obviously, can make a difference in performance. Whether it rests against the projectile base or sits on top of the primer flash-hole is a conundrum. How can you effectively predict it is doing either? Unless you are pointing the arm at the sky or at the ground, you can't insure either position is being simulated.
What does a filler do? Well, actually, it provides more "compactness" of the propellant charge. As any cannoneer can tell you, by compacting the charge you create more "pressure". The hard thing to do is gain general consistency of that "pressure" curve from load to load. Unless you are willing to carefully weigh, micrometer, trim, chamfer, clean and inspect every case you reload, your hobby presses are going to be inconsistent to some degree in mass pistol reloading. Ask the bench rest crowd. As far as "fillers", why use them?

 

[Jim Watson]

Nortronics,

I know what Hodgdon advertises for Titegroup, it is one of the powders I tried in .44-40. It had less difference in velocity bullet up vs primer up than W231 but 700X was better than either.

Fecmech,

Have you ever tried alternating the position of your gun between shots? Bullet up then primer up, gun brought GENTLY to the firing position. I have found that to make a difference in .38 Special.

There is a new powder coming on the market that attacks the problem a different way. IMR Trail Boss is of very low bulk density and does not leave as much freeboard in the case as other powders. I hope it is available the next time I need to load a batch of .44-40.

 

[fecmech]

"1. Yes, the effect is there with some conditions. Unless you compare shots where the muzzle is down before firing (as it would be in the holster) to "level" shots there isn't much difference even in worst case situations."

I've heard this from the Cowboy shooters a lot but every revolver I've ever loaded has been pointing straight down when I loaded it including my chrongraphing, so my first shot is always the same as theirs. I don't shoot straight up or down much so it's never been a problem for me.

 

[epijunkie67]

Wow, thanks guys. I sure didn't expect this kind of response. I knew this was the right place to ask.

 

[mbartel]

Some added info that kinda relates to this topic. IMR is coming out with a new powder called Trail Boss. It was designed for the CA shooters who like really light loads in their large handgun cases (.44 special, 44-40, .45 colt). This powder bulks up to fill the case, with a light (in weight) charge, cause apparantly. some of these CA shooters have blown up their guns with super light (and super small) charges of powder. The dreaded "flashover", "detonation", "secondary explosion", or whatever you want to call it, is a real phenomenon, and this powder provides a way to have a very light load but still have the large case mostly full of powder. I hope someone works up some data for the .500 s&w with this powder. Would be nice to shoot some really light loads without fear of damaging the gun or shooter. When shooting indoors on a rainy day at paper targets, it doesn't take much velocity to punch a hole in it.

 

[The Bushmaster]

And one last comment...Blackpowder rifles patch the ball to seal the ball for a better spin and or velocity. Not as a filler.

 

[griz]

Fecmech, have you noticed any difference in velocity with the first shot from fast powder revolver loads? I've heard people report anything from no change to over 100 FPS and appreciate more data points.

Thanks, Griz

 

[fecmech]

Griz--I can't say that I've noticed any big difference, as you can see from the exteam spreads and sd's that I posted the loads are pretty uniform. If one were to take great care carefully leveling the revolver so as to not disturb the powder against the bullet there might be a difference, but I don't know about that. That is not the "real world" as far as shooting is concerned to me. I just raise the gun and shoot. After the first shot I would guess the powder would be evenly disbursed through out the case. I personally think bloopers heard when shooting are 99and 44/100% loading screwups. Nick

 

[LHB1]

There is a round-to-round variation in velocity with any ammo in any gun that I have ever heard of, due to many possible causes. Bench rest shooters go to extremes trying to eliminate or minimize these variations. Less velocity variation is more desirable due to the theory that less variation gives more consistency in point of impact for bullet. I think this is one of the basic tenets of bench rest reloading and shooting.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB