nonlethal practice ammo

[docmagnum357]

As a concealed carry instructor, I am interested in any and all hints someone can give me concerning non lethal practice ammo. My state requires "live ammunition " for qualification. There is no standard for what can and can't be used, so long as it is "live". It would sure save a lot of trips to the range if I could use reduced power wax or rubber bullets, or primer powered wax or plastic bullets. It could save one of my students or my life at the range. It could most certainly save a life on the street, if the student learns a safe, fun way to practice a rapid, smooth draw, presentation, and then a double tap, (or an FBI failure to stop drill, i.e. two center mass, one to the head) in their own garage or basement. Our course of fire is 10 rounds at three yards, ten rounds at five yards, and ten rounds at seven yards. Eighty percent must hit the target. The target must be a "silhouette or bullseye "target. I think the cheapest wasy , and prabably the easiest, would be to just let them throw the "live ammunition" at the target, because the type of handgun isn't specified either.
The long and the short of it is that the course is a whole lot more about safety, legal issues, and grip, stance, draw, presentation, than it is about marksmanship. But I desperately want to leave my students with experience with something they can use that they can practice with until they get proficient.
I have experimented with home made wax bullets, ala Bill Jordan with poor results in 44 magnum, and dismall results in 38/357. Primers don't reseat in 38/357, and tie up the gun. I bought some Speer plastic bullets, and tried them in brass cases. Ditto on primers. I bought plastic Speer cases, and it was a quantum leap, I presume because they use large pistol primers. They recommend CCi 300 primers, (go figure) and sometimes they won't fire. Soft plastic case, hardest primer on the market. I am going to try some softer primers, and this may work. Primers either don't back out, or they reset, because I haven't had any more problems with primers tying up the gun.
I called a company that makes wax bullets for cowboy action shooting. C and R, I think. They claim you can use a little bit of powder in an unmodified case, or modify the cases for 209 shotgun primers. The shot gun primers are loose, so they really won't work for me. Maybe unmodified cases with a pinch of powder? I think I will order some, as they are cheap.
There is also a rubber bullet called "x bullet" or something on the internet. Has anyone used them? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, both by me and by my students.


Best,
docmagnum357

 

[Virginian]

Drill out the primer hole big time with any brass case to use primers only. They don't reset, they don't back out to begin with. Just don't get confused and then try to use those cases for regular loads.
I have been using Speer plastic cases in 357 and 44 for years. They recommend CCI primers because they are made by the same company !!
I was once shooting in the backyard, fast draw,using three old blankets in my garage to stop and drop the Speer bullets into a box. Neighbor called the cops, and the deputy that came used to live across the street and we would shoot in his backyard before the area got so built up. He saw what I was doing and he tried it too. Then the Sherriff showed up, said the lady called back. They told her they had sent someone and she said, "Yes, and now he's shooting, too !!" After the Sherrif went and explained things to her he came back and shot a cylinderful too.

 

[rcmodel]

Drill out the primer hole big time with any brass case to use primers only.

+1
You have to drill out the flash holes to 1/8" to prevent primer set-back with wax bullets.

They work perfectly fine when you do that.

BTW: It won't hurt anything if they were to get loaded with real loads.

All the new "Clean" and "Lead-Free" factory ammo comes with huge flash holes already.
They can be safely reloaded with any normal load data.

rcmodel

 

[Markbo]

I am curious... is this a big problem? I mean having instructors or students killed or wounded during training? Has it actually ever happened to you?

I mean I am kind of confused... help me understand here. You are dealing with what by definition are lethal force tools - you are training indiviudals in their use and you want to make them non-lethal?

That makes who more comfortable exactly? Surely it can't be the student, who must leave the training after shooting wax bullets with a subconscious thought that "This gun is dangerous!" rather than "This gun must be respected".

I understand that safety MUST be the #1 priority... but this IS gun training... not paintball training. No?

 

[docmagnum357]

Markbo,
No, I have never had any accidental discharge, lethal or otherwise, in training. I wouldn't be a trainer any more if I had. The main concern I have is what happens after students leave class. As I stated above, the law only requires 30 rounds to be fired. Even if it were 300, I would still not be comfortable leaving it at that. I want a training round that students can use in their weapon that will allow them to safely shoot any time it is conveinient. Safety, like proficiency, is a learned skill. You learn to drive safely by driving safely. Same with shooting. I would like to see them shoot about three thousand rounds a year, minimum. It ain't going to happen at a dollar for every two rounds, plus travel time to a range, range fees, etc., etc., etc. Most of them will never compete( God help them if they compete in action shooting before they learn stance, sight picture, trigger squeeze, and follow through.) or learn to reload. Practiceing with a pellet gun, or airsoft isn't the same. They need trigger time with their weapon, and dry firing doesn't teach follow through, or reloads. It may sound strange, but the best way to learn grip, draw, presentation, and then starting the firing sequence is to do it exactly right, slowly, until it is second nature, or "muscle memory", like putting a key in the front door. The same thing with reloads. Using a speed loader slowly is the best way to learn to do it fast.
It's not that I think my students will shoot me in a class, but that they might shoot their neighbors, or their kids, using a jury rig back stop, or practiceing a draw with a weapon that is not safe. But they must practice. When the chips are down, all you have is muscle memory. I have blown some absolute gimme' shots on deer, but I have hit them running, in the neck, when I had to draw, sight, squeeze and follow through too fast to think. I am not that good a marksman, naturally, but I was lucky enough to have to teach myself. I got a book that told me the fundamentals, and I practiced every day. After over one hundred thousand rounds of centerfire ammo, and countless rimfire, I still shoot better on monday, after a Saturday class, than I do on saturday. Basics, basics, basics. That's what I want for my students. A safe way to practice, practice, practice.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you can motivate your students to practice with anything you are doing darned well.

Problem with the plastic, wax, or rubber bullets is that they are basically a handloading proposition, even though on a simplified level. That might intimidate the sort of people who would benefit the most from them. If you can come up with a safe, economical, legal way to supply them, it might fly.

 

[VA27]

Simmunitions.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't think Simunitions will sell to American Commoners. And the gun has to be set up for them so you can't load hardball and wing a classmate.

I think there is a training round that does not require gun alteration, depends on procedures for safety instead of machinery, not cheap.