Not Giving Up Your Gun Policy

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Confederate

Confederate

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I know that one of the things cops are strenuously trained not to do is to give up their guns if their partners are being held hostage. But when did that policy really put into force? Was it the result of the 1963 incident later made into a book and movie entitled The Onion Field?

Seems like that was the impetus, but I don't know.
 
I thought about it while watching the television series 24. Seems that every time a terrorist had a gun on someone and said, "Give me your gun," that the agent gave up his gun. (Then the terrorist would usually kill the person anyway.)

This show apparently didn't use intelligence consultants in their show and all the blond-haired, blue-eyed terrorists also were a turn-off. Anyway, I agree with the policy of not surrendering one's gun. I just don't know when that policy became a deep seated part of law enforcement.

Anyway, the show violated all sorts of common sense things -- like sending only two agents to bring in a key witness. The CTU agents also seemed to be incompetents, while the terrorists were always better trained. (I'm watching the series for the first time and while it's entertaining, it's got a lot of...problems.)
 
A badguy shouldn't be able to realize I have a gun until it's too late to say anything. At least that's my plan.
 
Confederate said:
I thought about it while watching the television series 24. Seems that every time a terrorist had a gun on someone and said, "Give me your gun," that the agent gave up his gun. (Then the terrorist would usually kill the person anyway.)

This show apparently didn't use intelligence consultants in their show and all the blond-haired, blue-eyed terrorists also were a turn-off. Anyway, I agree with the policy of not surrendering one's gun. I just don't know when that policy became a deep seated part of law enforcement.

Anyway, the show violated all sorts of common sense things -- like sending only two agents to bring in a key witness. The CTU agents also seemed to be incompetents, while the terrorists were always better trained. (I'm watching the series for the first time and while it's entertaining, it's got a lot of...problems.)
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I haven't seen 24 yet but if it's like any other tv show and almost all movies i've seen it's jam packed with errors when it comes to firearms handling and tactics. Things like "racking" a shotgun while it's pointed at a perp or "racking it multiple times without firing, Glocks or similar having a hammer cocking sound, multiple rapid shots from a bolt action during a struggle for the gun, and the list goes on and on. It's annoying and what makes it even more so is the fact that a lot of it is very basic stuff that anybody who's handled a firearm more than 3 or 4 times should know.
 
As I recall from the academy (lo, those many years ago), yes.. it was common practice prior to the Campbell-Hettinger kidnapping and murder to "do what was necessary to defuse the situation". Hettinger took a lot of heat for his actions.

Eventually, LAPD policy was changed to provide better guidance.
 
"He who would disarm you is not your friend."

I'm pretty sure that applies to anyone, from politicians to criminals (I repeat myself). There is absolutely no good reason to give up your gun to anyone, ever. Maybe to police in very limited and narrow circumstances... Katrina style circumstances would be a big negative, but a traffic stop would probably be a good one.
 
Politly advise that if they don't let let said friend/corworker/lovedone go, there is no way they'll leave the room alive.

But then, if you're in that sort of standoff to begin with, you did something wrong. As somebody else mentioned, they shouldn't know you have a gun until you're ready to use it. They've already commited to aggressive action and you're not obligated to order them to drop their weapon.

I believe there was another thread about a marine in a similar situation. Even with hostages in play, there wasn't a standoffs. He was simply patient and engaged them when the time was right.
 
I'm with Panzercat. I listened to a Russian gentleman who had a little experience with the situation and he made sure the BG was very aware of the consequences and was lis-BOOM!... right in the BG's head.
 
Ryder said:
A badguy shouldn't be able to realize I have a gun until it's too late to say anything. At least that's my plan.
Click to expand...

Well, see there ya go. I don't look like a guy who would have a gun and I don't make an issue of the fact that I have one. It will materialize when it's to my advantage for it to do so, to the detriment of the BG involved.
 
A badguy shouldn't be able to realize I have a gun until it's too late to say anything. At least that's my plan.
Click to expand...

I agree. In an ideal situation the badguy should 1) feel the bullet, 2) hear the gunshot, and 3) see the gun, in that order. That's why I wouldn't OC even if it was legal. Of course, the police don't have that option.
 
I am a FIRM believer in who ever penned this one.

" you may be killed with your own gun,BUT they will have to beat you to death with an EMPTY gun"

I was LEO and do not believe in EVER surrendering my gun - I KNOW its loaded.
 
I definitely have to agree with the above posters, there's no reason for you to give up your gun in most any situation.

I guess if you were in such a mess and if you didn't happen to like the guy you can always take the Russian way out. Shoot through the hostage
 
Internet speculation is fine and dandy but at the end of the day the ultimate goal is to make it home alive, not be the super macho gun fighter. If giving up the gun puts me closer to achieving the goal of getting home alive than so be it. Sometimes you've got to realize when you're beat.
 
I have a friend that took the Front Sight course over the Christmas break. He told me he was instructed in this situation to take his time aiming and shoot the perp. Their thinking was you can't give up your gun, the perp isn't aiming at you, he doesn't expect it, even if you miss he's not going to waste his only trump card, and he definitely doesn't deserve a break.
 
Internet speculation is fine and dandy but at the end of the day the ultimate goal is to make it home alive, not be the super macho gun fighter. If giving up the gun puts me closer to achieving the goal of getting home alive than so be it. Sometimes you've got to realize when you're beat.
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Why do you assume giving up your gun will get you closer to getting home alive? No one here is trying to be a super macho gunfighter. We're trying to be survivors instead of victims.
 
I cannot think of a scenario where I would surrender my weapon.
 
We're trying to be survivors instead of victims.
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I'm not saying you should throw down your weapon at the first sign of trouble. What I am saying is that living in absolutes is impossible. There will always be some situation where throwing down the gun is preferable to holding onto it. I don't know what that would be, but to pretend it can't happen isn't very realistic.
 
Train with any loved ones who could become a hostage in such a scenario. In LE, we were taught the following (assuming a hostage is another officer with a gun held to the head by a suspect standing offside and behind him/her): As long as the suspect's gun is on the hostage, the defender's is on the suspect. The hostage should very closely monitor the suspect's actions, particularly the movements of his gun hand. As soon as that gun comes off her head and is redirected at the defender (sooner or later, it will), the hostage pulls her arm over the suspect's gun arm and drops full-weight to the ground, bringing his point-of-aim downward as well. The defender then takes the shot.
The above assumes a hostage-taker armed with a gun. One armed with an edged weapon is unlikely to divert it to the defender; the defender will have to judge when, or if, he should take the shot.
These types of scenarios actually do make good use of meticulous, paper-target-shooting skills, so don't discount them as "tactically lacking" training.
 
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scaatylobo said:
I am a FIRM believer in who ever penned this one.

" you may be killed with your own gun,BUT they will have to beat you to death with an EMPTY gun"

I was LEO and do not believe in EVER surrendering my gun - I KNOW its loaded.
Click to expand...

It was Clint Smith

"Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets - I may get killed with my own gun but they're gonna have to beat me to death with it......... cause it'll be empty."
 
I don't know what that would be, but to pretend it can't happen isn't very realistic
Click to expand...

If I can't even imagine a scenario where giving up the gun would be the best option, why continue to hold onto thew mindset that just "maybe" such a situation is going to happen, and that "maybe" giving up your gun would be the thing to do. I see such thinking as dangerous. Once you've conceeded there ARE times to drop your gun, you begin to wonder WHEN that should be the course of action, rather than remembering that absolutely NO GOOD can come from giving someone intent to do you or others harm your firearm, under ANY circumstances. Thinking in absolutes isn't always a bad thing. I think in absolute terms regarding gun safety and the 4 rules, and I see no reason not to think in absolutes in this case. I'm not giving my enemy or agressor yet another tool in which to kill me or others...period. Until a valid, legitimate reason is given for disarming one's self, I'll copntinue to subscribe to the notion that the only reason someone wants your weapon is to use it themselves, more than likely against you
 
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