NOT starting another Sig bashing thread....

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CutMan

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I just wanted to add my $.02.

I have been reading a ton of info about frame damage on Sigs followed by commentary on how bad their quality is now. Well, I have two Sigs. One from 1991, and one from 1993. They are both made in W. Germany. They are the 'old-school' folded slide models.

Now, just so you know, mine have the shiny chips and gouges on the aluminum frame just like everyone is complaining about on the new Exeter-made models. The older one has only 400 rounds, and the second one has thousands. The older one has the worst gouge even with the lowest usage. The manuals from back then said nothing about 'grease' (or any lubrication), so they were liberally oiled with CLP until recently. I now use slide-glide.

I'm not particularly worried about it, as it is a common trait of Sigs. I am planning on purchasing a p239 in the very near future.
 
That's the first I've ever heard of that. I've got a P239 9mm that I carry daily as my off duty weapon. Probably had a few thousand run through it with no damage. Mine is of the Exeter variety. My dad has a German made P226 9mm which God alone knows how many rounds it has eaten. As far as I know his doesn't have any frame damage either. Are there reports of malfunctions associated with these chips
 
no malfunctions, no frame cracking, etc..... just a 'thing' that happens with Sigs, IMHO. It is a source of recent 'sig-bashing' recently, but I'm saying it's ALWAYS been there.

Field strip your Sigs, and look at the Frame. Specifically, look at the groove that holds the slide, and particularly the top of the groove. That's where my damage is. It's a machine.
 
My additional $.02 cents or so... I have a P229SCT (2010) that has "gouges" aka wear on the underside of the rail the slide rides on on both sides... its P226 brother has a small one on one side only. Neither has ever had a malfunction (knocking wood) and the P229 which shows more wear has been inspected by an independant Sig certified armorer who confirms its normal and to be expected.

<section of controversial text removed by me before sharing with you :neener:>

Above I had an indepth analysis of why I see that Sigs get bashed but to post it would only serve to bring out the bashers and since this is NOT a Sig bashing thread I'll just say, I have at least one of each 'Classic' Sig and I trust them all - none of them have failed me.
 
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Wear on certain section of a Sig's rails have always been present on some guns. If you look at the "normal" common wear you will notice that it does not go through the anodniziation on the frame. Remember that the Sig Frame is aluminum on most models and without the anodization is not hard enough to withstand the beating from the steel slide.

The recent issues with damaged frames was not an issue of light wear common on older Sigs it was an issue of improperly finished slides with burrs marring or guaging the frame rails. The worst ones I saw involved the internal parts of the rails. The damage was deep enough to get through the anodization exposing the weaker aluminum.

This is typical common wear and does not effect the strength of the frame. A lot of Sigs wear to this point and then stop.

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Well, I was trying to say that I have older 226s that have the gouging on the underside of the rail, shiny aluminum exposed and all. Guess I need to find someone to de-burr my early 90's slides?
 
Well, I was trying to say that I have older 226s that have the gouging on the underside of the rail, shiny aluminum exposed and all. Guess I need to find someone to de-burr my early 90's slides?
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So you are stating that your Sigs have lost their anodization on the inner side of the frame rails?

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If that is the case IMHO you have run your Sig too dry and may have weakend the frame. 99% of shooters are never going to shoot enough rounds through their gun to shoot it to failure even after removing some of the anodization but that does not mean the gun has not been weakened. Running a Sig dry can result in damage and it makes no difference if the Sig is an older W. German or and new Exter Sig.

Again the more recent issues I have encountered were in properly greased pistols and involved burrs or machined defects which caused galling. I have seen it personally and there have been numerous confirmed reports of issues with recent production. That does not mean the sky is falling and that every new Sig is going to have this problem. By the same token because you ran your older Sig too dry does not mean there are not problems with new production. I tend to agree it has been over reported but it was not a made up issue like you are attempting to imply.

Florks of Apex Tactical recommends this regiment and I am inclinded to defer to him and Bruce Gray on the subject. YMMV

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/908103701
 
Well, I was trying to say that I have older 226s that have the gouging on the underside of the rail, shiny aluminum exposed and all.
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Your experience is not unique, CutMan. I know of at least two Model 220s and one Model 226, all made in W.Germany and all fired hundreds, if not thousands of times, and owned by fellow le officers, that have deep gouges carved into the frame rails and/or underneath them. I am not bashing SIG and I still own a couple of them myself. And as unsightly as the marks look, they seem to have had no adverse affect on the way the pistols function as all three continue to perform reliably.
 
Your experience is not unique, CutMan. I know of at least two Model 220s and one Model 226, all made in W.Germany and all fired hundreds, if not thousands of times, and owned by fellow le officers, that have deep gouges carved into the frame rails and/or underneath them. I am not bashing SIG and I still own a couple of them myself. And as unsightly as the marks look, they seem to have had no adverse affect on the way the pistols function as all three continue to perform reliably.
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It has always been my understanding that this type of wear does not effect reliablity or accuracy but it does shorten the life of the pistol but then again a 1000 rounds is no where near enough to shoot a pistol to failure. Something like 15,000 is another story.

Most of the time this wear happens in the first 200 rounds gets to a point and does not continue when properly lubed. If it is run dry all bets are off.

PS Pointing out the short comings of the design, wear etc... of any pistol line does not equal bashing IMHO. Anyone who owns/shoots Sig should read Flork's lube recommendations. Sig does a terrible job detailing the proper procedure.
 
I have a P220 Combat from Exeter and the quality seems excellent to me. Some of the frame rail annodization has worn after about 2500 rounds of .45 and ~1000 rounds of .22LR (conversion slide), but it's mostly still there. I've just used oil for lube so far. I might switch to grease on the rails.
 
I have a P220 Combat from Exeter and the quality seems excellent to me. Some of the frame rail annodization has worn after about 2500 rounds of .45 and ~1000 rounds of .22LR (conversion slide), but it's mostly still there. I've just used oil for lube so far. I might switch to grease on the rails.
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I used to use oil on my Sigs but switched to grease. I like the Enos stuff, Wilson, shooter choice or tetra. Really almost any grease will work. I have not seen any difference in performance between any of these brands. Like I said most of the time the wear happens early and then stops and does not continue. There is a post on ths Sig forum somewhere that details how "bad" the wear is based on the color of the metal.

Again unless you are planning on shooting 15,000 to 20,000+ rounds out of your gun it is unlikley to cause you any issue.
 
Never ran either pistol without oil. Back when I bought these, the owner's manuals said nothing about lubricating the rails.... I just contacted Grays Guns about having the slides de-burred. The thought of shortening the life of my Sigs is actually buggin me now.
 
Never ran either pistol without oil. Back when I bought these, the owner's manuals said nothing about lubricating the rails.... I just contacted Grays Guns about having the slides de-burred.
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I agree with you 100% on Sig not telling people about proper lubing technique. I used to use oil too. I sent a P220 SAS in for warranty work and I sent it in a condition just short of "dripping" in oil and then wrote back to me after fixing the extractor that the pistol needed "proper lubrication". I called them and asked what they consider "proper lubrication." This was right around the time they stopped shipping the pistols with milcom and switch to grease.

Like I said to Effigy most of the time the rails wear early and then stop. If you are properly greasing it now there is probably no need to send it to Gray Guns. Fieldstrip the gun clean the lube off it and run your fingers inside the rails on the frame and the slide. If you are not feeling or seeing any burrs continue to grease the gun per Flork & Gray Guns recommendations and you will be fine. IMHO.
 
I looked closely at my P229SCT that has the galling/gouging/wear under the rails. When the slide cycles rearward the rail on the bottom of what would be the breach block hits the hammer and rides over it cocking it. This causes the slide to raise ever so slightly up resulting in the front of the slide to come into contact with the frame - resulting in the gouge. I can't detect any burrs on the slide and after 8000+ rounds through it the wear is stable (really, after about 1000 the wear stopped getting worse). I lube with either TW25 or Tetra grease. Either way, as I said before, this pistol has never failed me. We'll find out how long it lasts when I get another 8,000 rounds through it. I'm going to shoot it to the point that my gunsmith says to stop and then buy another. :)


My P229SAS shows no sign of this phenomenon, I assume this has something to do with it being a "Custom Shop" model and possibly getting some hand fitting at assembly time. Feel free to burst my bubble...
 
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I think that if the galling is caught as soon as it starts, it can be worked on to reduce further galling.

Galling usually means some metal was scraped from one of the surfaces by friction. At the first sign, it is important to stop using the gun. Completely clean it and then take a Hard Arkansas stone and dress the surfaces to remove the raised metal and to smooth the surfaces. Galling usually results in "torn" surface finishes. Then really clean the gun to remove any metal particles, abrasives from the stone and to permit a detailed inspection of all wear surfaces.
Follow up with a light coat of grease appropriate for the gun.

It is important to use the Hard Arkansas stone lightly as your purpose is to smooth/dress the surface and not to abrade it or change its contours.

When I first purchase a handgun, I do this prior to shooting. Removing a burr before you shoot it reduces the possibility of galling and allows the surfaces to "marry-up" easier and more smoothly.
 
226 frame damage pic

I took a pic of the worst damage. This is the best pic I could get. Anyhow, what do you think? it's on the sharp edge, but mainly on the underside, hence the angle of the shot. Also, judge the side based on the takedown switch.
 

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Page 38 of the manual refers to lubrication with oil or grease. While it is far from detailed, it isn't a know it all , do it all reference on handguns. It mentions the guides and lubricating same. While i can't speak for other course, our club's Basic Handgun course goes into cleaning and maintence in great detail for new shooters as it's an area unknown to many.l

Proper lubrication technical are posted all over the place. What is best is and always has been the subject of discussion. For more years than I can remember, it it rotates, oil it. It it slides, grease it.
 
My manual says to apply a light coating of oil to the slide. That is the era that this gun was fired. The second 226 had a rough trigger, so I decided to use it at the range more to smooth out the trigger. It has several thousand rounds through it with oil and now grease. Neither of my manuals mention grease anywhere, and i haven't been on boards like this until now.
 
Hmmm, my 1991 German made, triple serial number Sig P228 has flawless rails. I've never seen any chips or any imperfections. It runs like a champ too.
 
My 229 has close to 15k rounds through it now. The first thing I did when I got it was do a detail cleaning of the gun looking for burrs. Had one on the slide toward the back. The I knocked all of the edges off where the slide could gouge the frame. Had a couple of places that flaked off the first 500 rounds and that's been it. I use grease on the slide. If you oil a gun lightly you will have wear. Sig's like to be run wet, particularly if your going to the range. If its a carry gun not to the point that it runs. I'm more concern about function, the gun is replaceable if needed in a gun fight you are not.

The picture that Cutman posted is where the slide it gouging at the rearward travel, slide tilt. A common area that needs to be smoothed out. Just stone the slide an it will stop.

My gun had a terrible DA, felt like gravel in the works and had a pull over 14#. Bruce Gray at Grayguns did the clean up on it. It's been smooth ever since. Current Sigs use MIM parts in the trigger group. Some of these are so rough they should never be used. Some are exceptionally smooth. It's kind of a crap shoot because you never know what your going to get. The SRT had greatly impacted the DA trigger, the German made Sigs are a lot smoother.
 
Blue68f100 said:
The picture that Cutman posted is where the slide it gouging at the rearward travel, slide tilt. A common area that needs to be smoothed out. Just stone the slide an it will stop.

My gun had a terrible DA, felt like gravel in the works and had a pull over 14#. Bruce Gray at Grayguns did the clean up on it. It's been smooth ever since. Current Sigs use MIM parts in the trigger group. Some of these are so rough they should never be used. Some are exceptionally smooth. It's kind of a crap shoot because you never know what your going to get. The SRT had greatly impacted the DA trigger, the German made Sigs are a lot smoother.
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"The picture that Cutman posted is where the slide it gouging at the rearward travel, slide tilt. A common area that needs to be smoothed out. Just stone the slide an it will stop. "

But, is that damage going to affect the life of the gun?

And, guys I 'GET' the need for grease now, but it was never in any of my manuals, and that damage is from the past. I use it liberally now. Thanks, though.
 
But, is that damage going to affect the life of the gun?

And, guys I 'GET' the need for grease now, but it was never in any of my manuals, and that damage is from the past. I use it liberally now. Thanks, though.
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Yes and no.

Yes it will weaken that point on the frame but NO because most guns will see enough rounds in its lifetime to exploit that weak point.

Again we are talking 25,000+ rounds if even then.
 
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