Arizona_Mike
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Mike
Now it is official: shouldering a pistol does not make it an SBR
- Thread starter Arizona_Mike
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Mike
Theohazard
Member
Thanks! Now it's going to be even easier to debunk this myth when it come up. I find it satisfying that the ATF is using the exact same arguments that many of us used when explaining why shouldering the SIG SB15 is perfectly legal.
wally
Member
They're here!
How well do the "braces" shoulder, in both the AR and AK variants? I have always been curious about this.
Like some input from owners, how far off is it from shouldering a stocked weapon? So you won't catch flak for having the brace without the straps?
Like some input from owners, how far off is it from shouldering a stocked weapon? So you won't catch flak for having the brace without the straps?
plodder
Member
* for the time being, subject to change.
wally
Member
You want the straps, it stiffens it at the bottom. I've shot my 9mm AR SBR and 9mm AR pistol side-by side and if you shoot squared up, nose to the charging handle like I do there is no practical difference when shooting, although the CTR stock is lighter and can have more length if you want it.
I've seen spacers to make the SB-15 not come so far forward on the pistol tube if you want more length, and I've heard of others using rifle tubes to increase the length. Best to drill the threads on the rifle tube so it can't take an A2 stock.
I've the pistol lower setup to test things out while waiting for SBR stamps, the SB-15 make me rethink needing any more stamps. Unless you can't live without a vertical grip the SB-15 really works well, looks kind of funky but who really cares! Its a nice "loophole".
Theohazard
Member
No, the ATF doesn't control how you shoot your guns. If the ATF somehow made shouldering a pistol illegal, then shooting a pistol using a two-handed grip would also be illegal: The official BATFE definition of a pistol includes the phrase "designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand". But most people use a two-handed grip to shoot their pistols and it's completely OK, because they have no control over how people shoot their guns.plodder said:
Sure, they might change their mind and decide that the SB15 isn't really designed as an arm brace and that adding it to an AR pistol makes it an illegal SBR. But they're never going to be able to control how you actually shoot it.
justice06rr
Member
This is good news. It is definitely a step forward and will put SigBrace users (and speculator's) minds at ease when shouldering an AR Pistol.
I might have to get one for mine...
I might have to get one for mine...
Quiet
Member
plodder said:
And subject to State SBR/SBS laws that do not conform with Federal SBR/SBS laws.
lilguy
Member
How do you shoulder a pistol without a stock? I have a KELTEC AR pistol and can't picture what's being discussed.
dogtown tom
Member
AmEngRifles
Member
Lilguy, you really can't. But you can use a sling to press forward and generate more stability with a positive forward force.
The AR-15 is the only rifle/pistol platform (that I am aware of) that requires the lower receiver buffer tube, due to the action design. That means there is a protrusion coming out the back end of the pistol version (the buffer tube). This has lead to some placing that buffer tube directly against their shoulder. ATF says that is ok.
Please note there are simple but significant design differences between a rifle and pistol buffer tube. As already noted, the full length RIFLE buffer tube is threaded at the very end to allow the butt plate to be held in place by a screw, which in turn keeps the A1 or A2 butt stock in place on the rifle. The CARBINE tube has the spine with drilled stop positions for the sliding butt stock. The PISTOL buffer tube is simply a round tube to house and control the action of the recoil spring and buffer. No threaded holes, no spine.
The AR-15 is the only rifle/pistol platform (that I am aware of) that requires the lower receiver buffer tube, due to the action design. That means there is a protrusion coming out the back end of the pistol version (the buffer tube). This has lead to some placing that buffer tube directly against their shoulder. ATF says that is ok.
Please note there are simple but significant design differences between a rifle and pistol buffer tube. As already noted, the full length RIFLE buffer tube is threaded at the very end to allow the butt plate to be held in place by a screw, which in turn keeps the A1 or A2 butt stock in place on the rifle. The CARBINE tube has the spine with drilled stop positions for the sliding butt stock. The PISTOL buffer tube is simply a round tube to house and control the action of the recoil spring and buffer. No threaded holes, no spine.
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Theohazard
Member
Yes, you can shoulder a pistol with the SB15 arm brace just fine. It works just like a normal stock except that it's rubber and it's not easily adjustable.AmEngRifles said:
Willie Sutton
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I think we shold send "Thank You" letters to Sergeant Joe. Hundreds of them.
If he was trying to build a case against someone it'll chafe him, and he deserves it.
If he is one of the good guys, using his position to get an answer from BATFE, he deserves our thanks.
In either case it would be good Karma to send him a note of appreciation.
Willie
.
If he was trying to build a case against someone it'll chafe him, and he deserves it.
If he is one of the good guys, using his position to get an answer from BATFE, he deserves our thanks.
In either case it would be good Karma to send him a note of appreciation.
Willie
.
jerkface11
Member
At what point is it not a stock anymore?
dogtown tom
Member
At the point when ATF gives you a determination letter that says it's not a shoulder stock.
jerkface11
Member
Didn't they recently get in trouble for being arbitrary ?
Elkins45
Member
My guess is that if he were trying to build a case against someone this letter would never have seen the light of day.
You can however use an angle grip.
Theohazard
Member
Can you clarify this? I have no idea what this is referring to.jerkface11 said:
Well, folks, that letter applies ONLY to that particular firearm and to that particular device. It does not say that any and all shoulder stocked pistols are exempt from the NFA, or that folks can hacksaw rifle barrels down to six inches.
I guess I could brace a 1911 on my shoulder without making it a short barrel rifle, but I find it hard to figure out how I could aim it.
Jim
I guess I could brace a 1911 on my shoulder without making it a short barrel rifle, but I find it hard to figure out how I could aim it.
Jim
Theohazard
Member
I don't see anyone arguing that. All I see is the ATF saying that if something is already officially designated as a pistol, it's not illegal to fire it from the shoulder. Though it doesn't just apply to AR-15 pistols: The letter clearly states that pistols in general apply to this letter.Jim K said:
rodinal220
Member
It always was. I am still amazed(not really) how people argued over this. BATFE said the SIG SB-15 "brace" was not a shoulder stock. If its not a stock and its on a pistol lower,its NOT an SBR,end of story.
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