Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,995
ZERO, because a bolt action pistol made from a rifle is not a pistol.....it's a short barreled rifle.In your 8 years as an SOT, how many specialty bolt action pistols have you made which would meet the classification of a weapon made from a rifle, not an SBR? It remains to be a human institution, but that has been my advice by the agents helping me Form 1 a couple Rem 700’s.
The instructions, as I cited above, from Page 4 of the ATF Form 1. Item 4 in the Definitions section, Firearms sub-section, circled below.
ATF Form 1
View attachment 841288
Well no kidding.The Exemplar on the ATF site sure looks an awful lot like the specialty pistol pictured above, doesn’t it? And what’s that circled part point out here? This NFA “firearm” type is a weapon made from a rifle having a barrel less than 16” and overall length less than 26”. Sure looks familiar...
"Specialty pistol" is not a term used in any Federal law/ATF regulation.Nowhere did I EVER say a specialty pistol is a short barreled rifle, because it isn’t one, so reading the definition of short barreled rifle doesn’t apply.
You should read that.Here’s your guidance describing that an action, originally assembled as a pistol can be reconfigured into a rifle without becoming an NFA firearm, but the reverse NOT being true.
ATF Ruling including Definitions for rifles, pistols, and conversions in between
It's an SBR either way.Reading must be very difficult for you.
If an action - the action itself, leaves Remington assembled as a rifle, which is what I said above, then it has to become an NFA item to be converted to a specialty pistol. If it’s over 26” total, I have been told to list them as an SBR, despite lacking a buttstock. Under 26”, I was instructed to list as a WMfaR.
No Federal law defines anything as a "specialty pistol".....you are inventing your own language.If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, it can be a specialty pistol or a rifle. Which is what I said above.
No one disputes that.If an action leaves Remington as a bare action, but is first chambered and stocked as a rifle by the owner, the standing advice I have been given, which is berated at length about AR-15’s and was such with TC Encores many years ago, the action could no longer be reconfigured into a pistol.
words matter, and yours were in error.I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, that you were engrossed so deeply in your chest thumping tirade that you couldn’t understand when I said “the action left the factory as a rifle,” I meant “left the factory assembled into a complete rifle.” Because everything you “corrected” about my statement is exactly the same as I stated.
Yet you believe in "specialty pistols"...….where did you read that?So either you can’t read, or you’re one of those SOT’s who doesn’t understand as much about NFA items outside of the products they sell as they think they do.
You should read that.
Firearm receivers are not pistol receivers or rifle receivers.....as you've described above.
Yet you believe in "specialty pistols"...….where did you read that?
I can only comment on what you wrote....and much of that has been gibberish. If you meant "ASSEMBLED AS A COMPLETE RIFLE" you should have written that.You can’t understand plain English, and apparently can’t get over the fact I said “an action left the factory as a rifle” and can’t understand that meant ASSEMBLED AS A COMPLETE RIFLE..
Yet you wrote: "If an an action starts as a rifle, the first time it is stocked and chambered, it can never be a pistol (other than “kits” like the Encore which are so designated in their transfers). But an action which starts as a pistol can be a pistol or a rifle, and back and forth..."Never do I say, here, above, or anywhere, that firearm receivers are rifle or pistol receivers by any virtue of their own. Quite the contrary, I have spelled out the fact how they are assembled defines them, and spelled out how taking two different roads to the same configuration might be legal in one route, and not in another.
Actions/receivers/frames/lowers ALREADY ARE firearms.We have BOTH said above, it is the assembly of the bare action/receiver which defines the classification.
Oh I grasp what you think it says, what you don't grasp is every "Weapon made from a rifle" IS also an SBR......how's your tinier littler world?What you do not seem to grasp, in your TINY LITTE WORLD, is Item 4 is included in the definition of an NFA firearm, just as much as Item 3. Item 3 describes a rifle with barrels less than 16”, aka, an SBR.
Now, where in this definition does it say an SBR has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder?Item 4, directly subsequent, describes a weapon made from a rifle with barrels less than 16” and an overall length of less than 26”. A bolt action “specialty pistol” with a barrel less than 16”, made from a rifle, such as the Krag in this post, or my own Rem 700’s, is not a pistol, despite looking like one. It is also NOT an SBR, as a rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, which these bolt action handguns are not, and may have a length under 26”.
A "Weapon made from a rifle" is by definition......an SBR.If it were NOT made from an assembled rifle, but rather offered in that configuration from factory, or built from an action which had never been assembled into ANY configuration, then it WOULD be a Title 1 pistol. The Remington XP100, Savage Striker, and Nosler NCR are examples of this. But replicating such a specialty pistol with an action which was first assembled as a rifle does NOT make a pistol, despite looking like one. It creates an NFA Firearm, in this case, listed as a Weapon Made from a Rifle.
Well wrong.So no, you are not correct that all NFA firearms with short barrels are ONLY SBR’s. If the length is less than 26” and there is no provision to be fired from the shoulder, it’s a WMfaR, not an SBR.
I'm not ignoring anything. But you are ignoring the simple fact that your "weapon made from a rifle" IS AN SBR!I can appreciate there aren’t many of us specialty pistol shooters, and that there’s seldom any sense in creating a specialty pistol from an assembled rifle, creating an NFA Firearm, rather than simply starting with a bare action. But it doesn’t change the fact, you’re absolutely ignoring all of the ATF documentation provided above
So now you are arguing that an SBR must only be designed to be fired from the shoulder?The definition of a short barreled rifle specifically states it is... you guessed it, a rifle.... and the definition of a rifle includes that it is designed to be fired from the shoulder.
I'm not the fool that can't accept that his WMFAR is also an SBR. Even when presented with the definition from ATF you're still clinging to hearsay and pictures on a website.I’ve heard your BS about ATF agents not knowing their job, at least not as well as you, but I will say, I take their word for it far above yours, and when they’ve instructed my Form 1’s to be listed according to item 4, referencing the photograph from their own web page above, I follow their guidance, and ignore fools like you.
Well bye.Go live your life. I’m done with your foolishness.
Really?You’re wrong about the difference in a short barreled rifle and a weapon made from a rifle.
Nope. But nice try at obfuscation and deflection.You’re probably the guy jumping stiff legged that the Shockwave is an SBS.
Yeah, or just read the definition of "SBR".For others, the evidence is in front of you. Call the ATF for yourself when you choose to build your own bolt action handguns from Title 1 rifles, and ask for your own clarifications as to what to use on your Form 1’s.
reason to expect such a skilled and knowledgeable maker would be totally ignorant of the laws by which he lives.