NYC/non-resident alien gun ownership

[Oleg Volk]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a16 covers Federal regulations.
I am not sure of the specifics of the NYC laws, besides this info: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NY Could people in the know advise on the options a person studying in NYC would have for acquiring handguns, rifles or shotguns for keeping at home (CCW seems entirely impossible). Hunter safety courses required for long gun ownership seem to be only infrequently offered. Thank you!

(P.S. I am also talking to a lawyer from upstate NY)

 

[Bridger]

While I live and go to school in the city, I don't keep my guns there.

All firearms must be registered, and the license renewed every 5 year or something along those lines.

Rifles and shotguns are easier to get, with a stricter assault weapon ban that bans the 1903 Springfield even. But it seems so long as they hold 5 rounds or less they are ok, for the most part. The permit cost I think is something like 250-350 dollars for a few years.

There is a "premises only" and "target only" pistol permits I know, that have a higher fee and even more strict requirements. No mag capacity above 17 rounds. I think there is a concentrated effort by the NYPD paper-pushers somewhere to make these permits more difficult to aquire and have more limits on them. For example, with the "premises" only I believe that you can only take the pistol to the range on specific dates, once or twice per month.

You can see why I don't keep my guns in the city.

 

[atek3]

fascists...
atek3

 

[artherd]

with a stricter assault weapon ban that bans the 1903 Springfield even.

Jesus. I thought we had it bad in CA.

 

[Preacherman]

Under Federal law, non-resident aliens can't own handguns, as I understand the law. They may own long guns under certain circumstances (usually involving a hunting license, etc.).

Non-residents may bring firearms (including handguns) into the US for competition or hunting purposes, but they have to take them with them when they leave, and they usually won't be permitted to stay more than a couple of weeks anyway.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Oleg,

I own a certain number of handguns. It is entirely illegal for me to bring any of them into the state of New York. You need a permit to touch a handgun in New York State, much less own one. The permit requires two references from residents in the county in New Your where you live, and takes about six months to get.

One of the reasons I dropped plans to retire to the Finger Lakes, which are otherwise beautiful country.

- pdmoderator

 

[Graystar]

Handguns:
You MUST be a resident of New York State to acquire a New York State handgun license. The NYS handgun license covers New York City as well, but state law gives NYC some expanded powers in issuing and honoring of handgun licenses.

As far as civilians are concerned, there are two types of licenses...restricted and unrestricted. You can only get an unrestricted carry license if you know someone high up. Otherwise, everyone gets restricted licenses, otherwise known as premise licenses. There no longer is a Target license. That's something that NYC tried to create but a judge ruled that NYC could not create its own license type.

Rifles/Shotguns:
Non-residents are allowed to apply for a NYC rifle permit.

NYC Administrative Code Sec 10-303(h)
h. Non-residents. Non-residents of the city of New York may apply for a rifle or shotgun permit subject to the same conditions, regulations and requirements as residents of the city of New York.

Section 10-303 also lists all the requirements for acquiring a rifle permit.

Note that no rifle magazine can hold more than 5 rounds. So those 10 round Ruger 10/22 mags are illegal in NYC. Also note that NYS has an assault weapons ban in effect that mirrors the expired federal ban, and that NYC has some additions to the ban, such as a 17 round limit on any kind of magazine (including pre-ban.)

Here is the firearm law for NYC.
http://www.nysrpa.org/nyc-admincode.pdf
and more NYC laws…
http://www.nysrpa.org/title38-rcny.pdf

 

[Gray Peterson]

There are also legality issues here:

The premise permits that are issued by NYC for target practice are not valid for target practice by state law. Leaving your house with a handgun, even if the premise license itself says "also for target/hunting", is still illegal per state law. In order to actually be able to go to the range, they must issue you a license under these provisions:

(a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder; (b)
have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;
(c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed
by a banking institution or express company; (d) have and carry
concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second
judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or
the New York city criminal court; (e) have and carry concealed while so
employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any
county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of
correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of
any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other
institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime
or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is
made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head
keeper; (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
issuance thereof; and (g) have, possess, collect and carry antique
pistols which are defined as follows: (i) any single shot, muzzle
loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar
type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not
designed for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition;
and (ii) any replica of any pistol described in clause (i) hereof if
such replica--

They are basically issuing (a) permits to people, saying that they are valid for outside the home if you target practice, which is patently not true. If you get pulled over by a state trooper, or leave the city itself, you can bet the LEO's in those jurisdictions will put you under the ringer. The only reason NYPD won't do it is because they want to support this illegal enterprise.

Why would the NYPD issue the improper licenses?

That's the most interesting question, and has the most messed up answer.

You see, NYPD was issuing licenses to people under the provisions of (f), above, putting on restrictions for "Target/Hunting" only. But, you see, violating the terms of the restrictions on a (f) pistol license is only an administrative offense. Meaning that the most the NYPD could do to you is report it to the issuing authority, and filing for an Article 78 hearing, in which your license could be revoked. You'd have to either turn in your handguns, or try to get them out of state beforehand, but the fact is, YOU COULDN'T BE ARRESTED OR EVEN YOUR HANDGUNS TAKEN AWAY for violating a restriction on a (F) pistol license. All NYPD can do is notify the licensing division, and then an they must wait for the Article 78 hearing.

But you see, NYPD hates the idea of not being able to immediately arrest anyone for possessing a handgun outside of restrictions, and taking away their guns, and putting gun owners through the ringer.

So, they hatched this scheme where target shooters only get premise licenses, has a stamp on there that says "You may target practice with this premise license", which isn't even worth the ink that's used to printed on it. Basically, the NYPD looks at it, and if you violate the terms of the restrictions, they'll arrest you and charge you with a felony, though they are sworn by the law to actually arrest ANYONE who's carrying outside of their premise with a premise license, they ignore it because they want to continue this illegal criminal enterprise.

Make sense now?

 

[Graystar]

Lonnie,

There are no legality issues here. Target licenses do not exist anymore. For at least a few years now, renewals on “target†licenses have been issued standard premise licenses (sub-sec (a) licenses.) The type is listed on the license as “RESIDENCE PREMISE.†The requirement of belonging to a range has also been lifted. Also, the license explicitly provides for travel to and from an authorized location (licensed ranges and hunting locations.)

Further, the NYPD is also providing a separate “Hunting Authorization†amendment with the license, which has two separate provisions. First, the licensee is authorized to transport his firearms within New York State while unloaded and in a locked container (doesn't have to be for hunting purposes.) Second, it authorizes the carrying of a loaded firearm while hunting (note that in NYS rifles and shotguns are not firearms.)

So leaving your house with a handgun is not illegal, as long as it’s unloaded and in a locked container.

The target license went away when a judge ruled that NYC couldn’t make it’s own type of handgun license, and that in court target licenses will be treated as premise licenses.

 

[Gray Peterson]

There are no legality issues here. Target licenses do not exist anymore. For at least a few years now, renewals on “target†licenses have been issued standard premise licenses (sub-sec (a) licenses.) The type is listed on the license as “RESIDENCE PREMISE.†The requirement of belonging to a range has also been lifted. Also, the license explicitly provides for travel to and from an authorized location (licensed ranges and hunting locations.)

It does not matter. The state law on subsection (A) licenses is that you cannot take handgun off of your property. There are certain exceptions to the transport rules in the laws, but one of them is not to be able to go to the range. For that you still need a subsection (f) pistol license. The NYPD essentially created a system they put in their "extra exception" for the purposes of their scheme, but no one except for the NYPD themselves would recognize it.

 

[Oleg Volk]

That is more restrictive than modern Russia or pre-1938 Germany!

 

[mhdishere]

Oleg,
When I lived in NYC I had a target handgun license, which I'm told was basically a carry license where you couldn't carry, but could go to the range whenever you wanted. They eliminated this type of license after I left.

I least when I lived there you had to go to two different places to get pistol or rifle/shotgun license, Manhattan for pistol, Queens for rifle/shotgun. Queens was a long trip for me so I never bothered to get a rifle license.

NYC also forbids you from owning a cartridge that fits a gun you don't have registered with the City, so I could and gotten arrested for possession of a single .45 cartidge if I didn't have a .45 registered. Legally you're not even allowed to shoot a handgun at a range if you don't have a license, although this was winked at at the club I went to, we'd loan a gun to someone to try it out before we went thru all the hassle of getting the license.

If your license expires NYPD WILL be at your door collecting your guns, and since they're registered they know what you have.

As others have said, you're not going to get a handgun license. You might be able to get a long-arm license, but I'm sure the process will take MONTHS, it took nine months to process my pistol license and I've heard it's gotten worse since.

Edited to add:
Oh yes, when NYC passed its AWB some dope decided that the 1903 Springfield was an AW because it had a bayonet lug. I don't know if that's still on the books or not, it was pretty much an administrative call by some bureaucrat with more time on his hands than brains in his head.

Doesn't all this make you feel safer?

 

[Graystar]

One of the problems with trying to review the law in New York is that a large part of isn’t available online. The New York Code of Rules and Regulations (NYCRR) contains a good deal of regulation pertaining to firearms. For example, that is where the CoBIS ballistic imaging system is authorized (9 NYCRR Section 493.) Unfortunately I don’t have a copy of the NYCRR because it cost nearly 3000 bucks. It is HUGE!

It is within the NYCRR that the New York State Police is authorized with running the firearm licensing system. They have the power to define the systems, and provide authorizations, within state law. Most likely, it is within the NYCRR that the State Police have defined the manner of authorizing firearm transport for Premise license holders.

In any case, it doesn’t matter. Under the conditions of issue, number 5 reads:

HANDGUN(S) may be transported UNLOADED, IN A LOCKED CONTAINER, DIRECTLY to and from an authorized range, or hunting location. Ammunition will be transported separately.

This constitutes direct authorization from the Police to transport my firearms. It is exactly the same as when a cop waves you through a red light. The cops can't wave you through a red light, and then give you a ticket for going through a red light (at least, not when there are witnesses around.)

Rest assured that authorization for transport is given and is legal.

 

[willp58]

NYC is a small place in the state of NY...Compare it to a tick on the @ss of humanity..
I live in upstate NY and have had a CCW permit since 1960 --Without ONE problem...
You get the permit ONCE and it's for life or until revoked in case you do something real stupid such as acquire some felony arrests.
I have hunted deer and killed several with my 44 mag. Most guys nowadays are using the 3 shot bolt pistols here.
We're overrun with deer and can hunt Sundays as well...

All this and there is NO problem with handguns ---Just *don't* commit felonies and you will be just fine!
There are no restrictions on long guns other than any the feds have set.

 

[secamp32]

NYS has an assault weapon ban separate from the Feds

NY state law prohibits AW not lawfully possessed prior to September 14, 1994. Not as bad as NYC but still sucks.

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an
ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the
following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a
flash suppressor;
(v) a grenade launcher; or
(b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following
characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
(c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the
pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is
unloaded;
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm;
or
(d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such
weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known
as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all
models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street
Sweeper and Striker 12;

 

[Graystar]

Actually, I don't know if any of this has answered the question.

This was asked once before, by Jim March I believe. After some investigation, I could find no citizenship requirement (neither US nor NYS) for acquiring a handgun license or rifle/shotgun permit.

Although there is no residency requirement stated in the state law, I believe there is a residency requirement for handgun licenses within the New York Code, Rules, and Regulations (NYCRR). Of course, as I noted previously, NYC allows non-residents to apply for a rifle/shotgun permit.

So if the person in question meets the federal guidelines for firearm possession then I’d conclude that such person could hold an NYC rifle/shotgun permit.

 

[mhdishere]

Oleg,
How long will you be studying in NYC? If the application process takes as long as it did you might be done before your app is completed.

 

[ctdonath]

The NYS handgun license covers New York City as well

WRONG!!!

The NYS license specifically states "Not valid to carry a weapon in New York City unless approved by the Police Commissioner of that city."

 

[Oleg Volk]

I am not even going to NYC. My friend is staying for a year to year and a half.

 

[mjustice]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a16 covers Federal regulations.
I am not sure of the specifics of the NYC laws, besides this info: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NY Could people in the know advise on the options a person studying in NYC would have for acquiring handguns, rifles or shotguns for keeping at home (CCW seems entirely impossible). Hunter safety courses required for long gun ownership seem to be only infrequently offered. Thank you!

Persuant to federal law, non-resident aliens can only possess firearms under discrete circumstances (hunting trips, range rentals, basically situatons where they do not own the firearm). While NYC *could* issue a license to a non-resident alien for the purposes of renting a firearms, no one at 1 Police Plaza is smart enough to do that. While it is legally possible (since you *can* have a license without a gun on it, even though NYC's rules don't allow for it), NYC (in almost all situations) will not issue a license to a non-resident alien.

Most non-citizens who want to own possess longarms in New York (under the hunting license exemption) usually take the hunter safety course outside of NYC (usually on Long Island or in the lower Hudson Valley - Westchester, Rockland, etc.)

As for your friend, the best thing he or she can do is obtain a NYS hunting license and then apply for (and receive) a rifle/shotgun permit. There is nothing in NYC law (the administrative code), NYC Rules (Title 38), or NYS law that prohibits or otherwise restricts the issuance of a rifle/shotgun permit based on the applicant's immigration status.

MJ

P.S.: Even though I am the NYC reigonal director for the NYSRPA, this post is made in my personal capacity as a reader of this forum. This is not legal advice. Questions about law should be referred to a qualified attorney )

 

[mjustice]

Rest assured that authorization for transport is given and is legal.

Authorization is given, but it has not been determined (yet) if it is or is not legal. Since proper cause is not required for a license to possess a handgun in New York (a license issued under §400.00(2)(a) or §400.00(2)(b)), the licensing officer does not have the "latitude" necessary to restrict the license. Furthermore, nowhere in the law is the licensing officer given the ability to enhance a license.

Until a NYC licensee is arrested and charged for violating the licensing law by carrying or otherwise possessing a handgun outside of their licensed premise, the courts will not be able to resolve the issue. Most jurisdictions immediately surrounding NYC are aware of this issue, and none seem intent on arresting a licensee (yet).

MJ

 

[mjustice]

The target license went away when a judge ruled that NYC couldn’t make it’s own type of handgun license, and that in court target licenses will be treated as premise licenses.

Not true. The NYPD changed their scheme for issuing licenses in the summer of 2001 -- no member of the judiciary had anything to do with it.

While I cannot claim to interpret the thoughts of the heads of NYPD's licensing division, a clear rationale for changing the policy would be to allow the NYPD to arrest and (presumably help) convict licensees who are caught carrying (on their person) registered handguns.

A carry licensee, even under NYC's extremely restrictive license, could not be charged criminally for violating the terms of their license. A premise licensee who carries on their license can be arrested (violating the license law is a class A misdemeanor) and could face up to a year in jail.

MJ

 

[Graystar]

Authorization is given, but it has not been determined (yet) if it is or is not legal.

Of course it has. In The People of the State of New York v. Frank T. the New York State Court of Appeals found that Penal 400 doesn’t address the manner in which licensed firearms may be carried. The court ruled that only remedy available to the state was administrative.

This makes sense. Once you have a handgun license, the laws prohibiting simple possession don’t apply (Penal 265.20 Exemptions) and you can transport the firearm unrestricted.

This means that the transport conditions on a license are actually restrictions, not enhancements. And the courts have ruled that licensing officers can place restrictions on licenses.

MICHAEL O'CONNOR v. ANTHONY A. SCARPINO 83 N.Y.2d 919
We agree with the courts below that the licensing officers' power to determine the existence of "proper cause" for the issuance of a license necessarily and inherently includes the power to restrict the use to the purposes that justified the issuance. Without such a power to condition, the licensing officer's authority to allow possession of a handgun only for proper cause would be rendered meaningless and the obvious regulatory purpose of the statute would be frustrated.

Further, in New York City, Title 38 explicitly gives Premise license holders authority to transport the firearms to a range. Therefore, the authorization is legal. There simply is no question about it.

Not true. The NYPD changed their scheme for issuing licenses in the summer of 2001 -- no member of the judiciary had anything to do with it.

I’m sure there was a case what was the catalyst for this change, although I’m having trouble locating it. If I find it I’ll post it. I find it hard to believe that New York City would decide, for no reason, to ease the restrictions they’ve placed on firearm possession.

A premise licensee who carries on their license can be arrested (violating the license law is a class A misdemeanor) and could face up to a year in jail.

I do not believe this is correct. See THE PEOPLE &C., APPELLANT, v. FRANK THOMPSON.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I98_0139.htm

I found no law within the existing NYC code that makes a crime of carrying a firearm under a premise license. All that exist on this matter comes from the introduction of handgun licensing in Title 38:

Any violation of this subchapter and/or the restrictions of the license, if any, may result in the suspension and/or revocation of the license.

So, as far as I can tell the Frank T ruling still holds. If you know of any law passed since then that invalidates the ruling please let me know.

 

[mjustice]

Of course it has. In The People of the State of New York v. Frank T. the New York State Court of Appeals found that Penal 400 doesn’t address the manner in which licensed firearms may be carried. The court ruled that only remedy available to the state was administrative.

This makes sense. Once you have a handgun license, the laws prohibiting simple possession don’t apply (Penal 265.20 Exemptions) and you can transport the firearm unrestricted.

This means that the transport conditions on a license are actually restrictions, not enhancements. And the courts have ruled that licensing officers can place restrictions on licenses.

The Frank Thompson case dealt with a carry license, albeit restricted, that was issued pursuant to §400.00(2)(f). Premise licenses issued in New York City are issued pursuant to §400.00(2)(a) for residences and §400.00(2)(b) for businesses. The case you refer to is based on a licensee with a carry license being arrested for violating the restrictions of a carry license.

To make things clear: Carrying "beyond your restrictions" on a carry license is an administrative violation. Carrying on a premise license is a violation of the law. See §400.00(15).

The courts made it clear that you can restrict a carry license. It did not address the issue of enhancing a premise license to allow for things that go beyond what the law provides.

In fact, to allow NYC (or any other licensing officer) to create a new license, that, when the terms of which are violated, is a criminal violation is unconstitutional (in New York). In the Empire State, the power to create laws rests solely with the legislature. See Article III, Section 1 of the NYS Constitution. Since the state did not give NYC the ability to craft law in this area, it (legally) can’t.

Further, in New York City, Title 38 explicitly gives Premise license holders authority to transport the firearms to a range. Therefore, the authorization is legal. There simply is no question about it.

Title 38 of the Rules of the City of New York are regulations (think of it as the NYCRR for New York City). The NYPD cannot make laws. Rules, even in NYC, cannot exceed the power (or authority) of the enabling law. More importantly, the penal law does not grant NYC (or any other municipality) the right or power to re-regulate a Premise license (or any other license) and give it features as they see fit -- New York City does not have the ability to create a new license type or create hybrids.

Not true. The NYPD changed their scheme for issuing licenses in the summer of 2001 -- no member of the judiciary had anything to do with it.

I’m sure there was a case what was the catalyst for this change, although I’m having trouble locating it. If I find it I’ll post it. I find it hard to believe that New York City would decide, for no reason, to ease the restrictions they’ve placed on firearm possession.

How did you interpret this wholesale conversion of licenses as being an easement of restrictions? If anything, they have tightened the noose more! The NYPD knew exactly what they were doing. They criminalized carrying by licensees, and then tried to placate them by saying that you can now keep you pistols that used to be on your target license loaded at home.

(For those of you who are not familiar with NYPD regulations, under the old [pre 2001] system, most restricted carry licensees were not supposed to keep their guns loaded at home. Premise licensees were allowed to keep loaded weapons at the licensed premise. This was a rule created by the NYPD and not a law.)

A premise licensee who carries on their license can be arrested (violating the license law is a class A misdemeanor) and could face up to a year in jail.

I do not believe this is correct. See THE PEOPLE &C., APPELLANT, v. FRANK THOMPSON.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I98_0139.htm

Once again, People v. Thompson refers to carry licenses, not premise licenses. The case you should be looking at is People v. Parker, 52 NY2d 935 (1981). In this case, the ruling makes it clear (specifically to the New York Police Department) that the correct charge for a person violating the terms (specifically carrying) of a (premise) pistol license is violation the a provision of the pistol licensing law (§400.00(15)).

I found no law within the existing NYC code that makes a crime of carrying a firearm under a premise license. All that exist on this matter comes from the introduction of handgun licensing in Title 38

Once again, see §400.00(6), §400.00(15) and read People v. Parker. If you need help finding the case, PM me.

MJ

P.S. We’ve drifted horribly off-topic in this thread. If you want to continue this, please create a new thread (and let me know that you did, I no longer have the time to read THR daily )

 

[Connecticut Yankee]

NYC and Guns

Oleg,

I left the city in the 90s so my info is too outdated to be of use. However, please check the discussion pages at www.packing.org for further insights on the discussion of premises and target permits.

May I suggest, however, that you forget about living in NYC at all, the prices are flat out nuts. Studio apartments that are hovelesque are in the 1000/month range and anything nice is about 1500 and up. I know many young people in their 20s who, for financial reasons, live outside the city. NJ is even worse than NY for guns, but rentals in Hoboken and Jersey City, about a fifteen minute train ride from downtown, are much more reasonable.

I suggest Connecticut, not ideal, but if you'r willing to travel about 45 minutes you can get decent apartments and long guns are permit free (two week wait to take possession if purchase in state unless you have a hunting license or pistol license). No long gun permit is required. Again, check packing.org for details on Ct law re: aliens.

Send me a private reply should you want more help re: housing locations, areas, etc. in CT and NJ. I live in the former and my sister lives in Jersey City. Good luck in all your endeavours and Godspeed!

Victor