NYC Subway shooter's firearm trace

[Speedo66]

Luckily, it turned out that the customer in question is the prime suspect in the crime. (If the gun had changed hands multiple times after the first retail sale, the trail could go cold.)

Conspiracy theories about secret registries, retention of background check information, etc., are not necessary to explain what happened. Occam's Razor.

Empty headed newsie - Nobody died, he was obviously not shooting to kill.
Internet Tactician - If a Glock jammed, it must have been loaded with a cheap Korean magazine.

The NY Times article about this says the shooter was the fourth owner, so they were able to trace it that far back.

It also states that he was indeed using 33rd. aftermarket magazines.

An "expert" quoted in the article theorized he was shooting from the hip, and thus shooting low. Most of the injuries were to the leg area.

From the NY Times article:

"Such malfunctions can happen when a gun’s internal mechanisms are clogged with dirt, or when a magazine is attached that is not compatible with the handgun, Mr. Magill said. (Mr. James’s high-capacity magazines were not made by Glock, according to the senior law enforcement official.)

The handgun was on its fourth owner, according to the law enforcement official. It was sold new in Texas in 2006 and resold in Georgia, then in Massachusetts, and then finally to Mr. James, who bought it legally in Columbus, Ohio, in 2011.

The way the gunman fired the Glock might also have spared lives. Several victims, like Hourari Benkada, 27, who said he was sitting next to the gunman on the N train at the time of the attack, were shot in their lower limbs. Mr. Benkada told CNN that a bullet had gone through the back of his knee.

Rudy Pérez, 20, a construction worker, was struck in his left leg. The location of the injuries, in the lower parts of victims’ bodies, could indicate that the man was shooting from his hip, keeping the gun low, Mr. Magill said, and thus throwing off his aim.

“Luckily he wasn’t a skilled person with a gun,” Mr. Magill added."

 

[Jim Watson]

The NY Times article about this says the shooter was the fourth owner, so they were able to trace it that far back.

Which does call for sub rosa registration. Ohio does not require a license to purchase or require private sales to be put through FFL procedures.

 

[steves2]

You may be correct.
from one news story:
The vast manhunt for Mr. James, who has addresses in Philadelphia and Wisconsin, included a broad review of security cameras throughout the subway system; a more than 17-block wide ground canvass in Sunset Park for stores’ surveillance footage or other signs of Mr. James; and a search for information on the gun, which matched a serial number in federal records.

However, they found the rental truck, which he apparently rented in his own name. Did Ohio ever have any sort of gun registration?

Don’t you have to have a drivers license from the state you are buying in?
Another relevant question would be, with all of his quite serious run-ins with the law in multiple states, how in the world was he NOT a prohibited person as a felon? Was he not prosecuted or found guilty a single time?

 

[steves2]

Which does call for sub rosa registration. Ohio does not require a license to purchase or require private sales to be put through FFL procedures.

...but he bought it at a pawn shop...which is an FFL. He didn’t buy the gun through a private seller.

 

[Jim Watson]

But if the gun were fourth hand, there is not supposed to be a documented chain of possession.
If Joe Schmuck buys a gun from Acme Sporting Goods, pawns it, fails to redeem it, and the pawnbroker sells it to the offender, there is no published means of linking the gun across that break in FFL data.

 

[Tilos]

Basic tracing.
2. From a total of 33 shots fired, not a single fatality. In a crowded subway car. Like shooting fish in a barrel. The shooter had to be going out of his way to avoid hitting vitals.

Yes, that's the trace method used today.
Using FMJ (ball) ammo could be the reason no-one died here.
no expansion,
jmo,

 

[F-111 John]

The only serial number that matters is the one on the frame of the gun.

The serial number on the frame is the only one that legally matters, but Glock puts matching serial numbers on the frame, the slide, and the barrel. It's like the VIN number of your car. The only one that legally matters is the VIN plate viewable through the windshield, but the VIN number is in multiple locations on the vehicle.

So I think N555's point was that if your goal was to obliterate the identity of the firearm, and assuming the firearm was all original, you would have to successfully destroy the serial number at all three locations.

 

[F-111 John]

But if the gun were fourth hand, there is not supposed to be a documented chain of possession.
If Joe Schmuck buys a gun from Acme Sporting Goods, pawns it, fails to redeem it, and the pawnbroker sells it to the offender, there is no published means of linking the gun across that break in FFL data.

That's assuming that Joe Schmuck could not be located and questioned as to how and where he disposed of the gun he purchased from Acme Sporting Goods. If Mr. Schmuck were to be found, he could tell the ATF that he sold it to the pawnbroker, who then could be asked who they sold it to.

 

[AlexanderA]

But if the gun were fourth hand, there is not supposed to be a documented chain of possession.

What the ATF tracers do in a case like that, is to painstakingly contact each owner in turn, asking them to whom they disposed of the gun. The problem comes if an owner cannot be located, or refuses to cooperate.

 

[Jim Watson]

Right, requires that private owners have good memories/personal records.
When it gets down to fourth hand with the last previous owner the sort of person who pawns and does not redeem stuff, chances seem poor. Yet it was done here. If it was actually fourth hand. There are several conflicting reports on that and other aspects going 'round, we will just have to wait and see which is right... or at least deemed most acceptable for publication.

In 1972, the Charter Arms .38 that Arthur Bremer shot George Wallace with was traced in very short order. I doubt it mattered when he was captured on the spot, but it certainly cemented the case against him.

 

[natman]

How did the ATF find the data that traced the purchase to Frank James from 11 years ago? That data would be on a Form 4473 held by the dealer's notebook in Columbus, Ohio on his premises unless he/she went out of business and submitted them to ATF. In that event the notebook should be on shelf somewhere.
The background check data from 11 years ago should not be on file either since it is supposed to be destroyed after a short time period.
To find that data in less than 24 hours leads me to believe that ATF may not be following the rules.

When I worked in a gun shop I got a few ATF trace calls. You stop what you're doing and go look it up in your collection of old bound books. They're calling you based on the last link in the chain, so they tell you the date it left them, which narrows down the search considerably. If the gun was sold new, there would be only a few links, so they'd find the current owner rather quickly. Bound books have to be kept for at least 20 years (it's proposed that dealers have to keep them forever), so tracing an 11 year old transaction is not at all surprising.

 

[John_R]

The surprising thing I noticed about this incident is the perp using a 9mm, extended magazine, firing 33 shots or more, INSIDE A CROWDED SUBWAY CAR where NONE of his targets can escape and NO ONE DIED. Only about half the shots even wounded any one.

What does this say to the "quick second shot", "spray and pray", "MODERN 9mm is just as good as" and "9mm is more accurate", "accuracy by volume" crowds? Oh yeah, and he was STOPPED when his gun jammed. Was that a Glock Perfection moment?

Maybe he wasn’t trying to kill anyone.

 

[natman]

But if the gun were fourth hand, there is not supposed to be a documented chain of possession.
If Joe Schmuck buys a gun from Acme Sporting Goods, pawns it, fails to redeem it, and the pawnbroker sells it to the offender, there is no published means of linking the gun across that break in FFL data.

Pawnbrokers who deal in guns are FFLs and keep the same records.

 

[John_R]

Yes, that's the trace method used today.
Using FMJ (ball) ammo could be the reason no-one died here.
no expansion,
jmo,

I guess GIs never killed anyone with their sidearms, then.

 

[Old Dog]

Another relevant question would be, with all of his quite serious run-ins with the law in multiple states, how in the world was he NOT a prohibited person as a felon? Was he not prosecuted or found guilty a single time?

According to one news source, although he'd been arrested multiple times, it was all misdemeanor offenses such as trespassing, harassment, etc. -- he'd never been convicted of a felony.

 

[barnetmill]

Reports are contradictory.
It would be no trick for the feds, given the gun and its serial number to go from manufacturer, to distributor, to dealer, to retail customer.
But there was one version that had the subject pistol bought second hand at a pawn shop, which would break the chain of bound book records. So either that is wrong and the offender got the gun new, or there is more record keeping and sharing than They want us to know about.

Many pawn shops sell new guns. So it could have been purchased new at a pawn shop.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Maybe he wasn’t trying to kill anyone.

LOL, just gonna crease 'em, eh? LOL. Kyle Rittenhouse should have tried that one!

 

[AJC1]

According to one news source, although he'd been arrested multiple times, it was all misdemeanor offenses such as trespassing, harassment, etc. -- he'd never been convicted of a felony.

The sexual assault one might not have been, but that's the beauty of plea bargons, and lazy district attorneys.

 

[SimonRL]

It may be common, but that doesn't mean it's knowledge. I have read here from people I consider knowledgable that the paper forms are stored in shipping containers in a parking lot outside one of the ATF offices and that they aren't digitized.

You’re right, they are kept in shipping. containers by the millions, where they are slowly but inevitably digitized - to microfilm.

Here’s a great article on the National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, VA if you’re interested.https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

 

[old lady new shooter]

Many pawn shops sell new guns. So it could have been purchased new at a pawn shop.

Doesn't a pawn shop have to be an FFL in order to buy and sell firearms?

 

[old lady new shooter]

Don’t you have to have a drivers license from the state you are buying in?
Another relevant question would be, with all of his quite serious run-ins with the law in multiple states, how in the world was he NOT a prohibited person as a felon? Was he not prosecuted or found guilty a single time?

He has a long rap sheet, but all misdemeanors.

 

[Atavar]

It could also be that if the gun were repaired by the manufacturer they would then have the customer information. That would make it quicker.
30+ Rounds and no deaths, and a jam. I don’t think I want one of those for my edc. In 30+rounds there should have been 1 accidental death anyway.

 

[toivo]

Besides the gun, they found his credit card and the keys to his rental van at the scene. They didn't need the gun trace to find out who the shooter was. Why even bother with the gun trace, except to possibly add other charges or snag somebody else, like a co-conspirator.

 

[Elkins45]

You’re right, they are kept in shipping. containers by the millions, where they are slowly but inevitably digitized - to microfilm.

Here’s a great article on the National Tracing Center in Martinsburg, VA if you’re interested.https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-cops-actually-trace-a-gun-2016-8

I think we need to define terms. Microfilm is most definitely NOT a digital medium. It’s 100% analog, and it is not searchable like a database. Even the article you linked says that. They can’t just type in a serial number on a computer. Someone has to scroll through rolls of microfilm until they find an image of the 4473. It’s simply not to correct to say the records are digitized.

Besides the gun, they found his credit card and the keys to his rental van at the scene. They didn't need the gun trace to find out who the shooter was. Why even bother with the gun trace, except to possibly add other charges or snag somebody else, like a co-conspirator.

There isn’t a prosecutor or investigator on the planet would prefer to have LESS evidence to use against a suspect.

 

[Cayle]

So it takes a day's work to trace a gun used in a crime, but it takes a year or more to approve a suppressor purchase.

If the dealer has good records it will take about 15 minutes at the most. I've personally never had a trace take more than a few minutes. ATF calls and gives me the serial number and date and I can usually grab the box and have the 4473 in my hands in a few minutes.

But you are correct. They should be abolished.