NYPD and the 9mm?

[phantomak47]

I dont want to start a caliber war about the 9mm vs. the .40 and .45 etc, so please don't . My question in a world where the police standard has MOSTLY become the .40 as the police sidearm standard, why has the NYPD stayed with the 9mm. They have gone against some would say the "police standard" and that with new technology and the need to "always improve" wouldn't have an effect in the upgrading of the 9mm.


I am not trying to say that the 9mm is not effective, I carry and own a Sig 226 in 9mm. The question is why do they stay with 9mm?

 

[DMK]

They are conservative. It works for them. It gives them added capacity.

NYPD also carried 38 special when many other depts carried 357mag.

A big dept like NYPD doesn't care what other depts are doing. They look at works and what does not work for them.

 

[GTSteve03]

Think about how many officers they have and how much ammo they use for training/carry.

I'm sure it was cheaper for them to stay with 9mm and considering what you can buy Speer Gold Dot 124gr 9mm loads for that are police overruns, I bet they're saving a bundle of money.

Also, the 9mm has reduced recoil making it easier for those who don't have a lot of practice with firearms.

 

[Seiko]

There are roughly 40,000 officers in the NYPD..... If they switch guns from 9mm to 40s&W, think

40,000 Guns at lets say $500 ea.
40,000 Holsters at $80 ea
40,000 Magazine pouches at $20 ea
Theres 24 million right there, that will put a little dent in your wallet.

Never mind the increased ammo cost per year if they were to switch, retraining all their range officers, armorers and all 40,000 people. Along with having to re qualify everyone..... Theres probably another 20 million there alone!

 

[Blue Brick]

Is the NYPD the largest LEA in the US?

 

[phantomak47]

I believe its at around 40,000 officers give or take and it is the largest in North America.

 

[doc2rn]

Topeka PD also made the switch to .40 a couple of years back, but the cheap ammo they wanted to buy would not always cycle the weapon so they switched back to the G19. 9mm works for alot of LEOs and is easier for some of the smaller personel to control their firearm. Bigger isn't always better.

 

[Gunz]

I also onder about the size of NYPD relatie to LAPD, Chicago PD.

i would wager that the 9mm is also for the purpose of statistics of percentage of officers qualifiying, ,being proficient with shots hit, and department liability for officers who can be defended for using such weapons.

I would also imagine the increase in taxes NY-ers would pay to have the police department "retool" their sidearm needs. They pay enough for the cars, fuel, and other costly-more used-less visible tools for police work.

I read in here somewhere that Texas HP or such went with 357SIG. The 40 round seems to be rather prominent. I tthink it is all in the sales pitch teh manufacturers' rep give to the departments across the nation. There was a time in the 70s and 80s where the high cap 9mm was the leading edge. They replaced the aging 38SPL. I guess the next wave of caliber development and statistics showing the street effectiveness and "energy-dump" and a host of other nice charts and graphs manufacturers for guns and ammo provide to promote a product.

If someone made an autoloader where most human hands can handle, and control muzzle and flash for the 125gr 357 magnum, then that would be toutes as the most effective LE round. wait a minute...there IS a sales pitch already for the SIG....

I guess it all boils down to hitting what you aim, and what the police union attorneys can defend...

 

[biscuitninja]

I think the SAS also uses 9mm. But they all practice double taps though and they ALL aim for the head, no exceptions!
good luck
-bix

 

[cookekdjr]

My guess: the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p jhp has worked very well for them. So they don't want to mess with a good thing. NYPD has lots of shootings involving their cops every year. So they learn in a hurry if their carry combo works or not. I have heard it works very well. Why mess with success?
-David

 

[MTS Cop]

It took several cops getting killed in the late 80's, early 90's and a good Police Commissioner for the NYPD to finally upgrade to 9mms. The most notable incident was the murder of PO Scott Gadell. He was involved in a shoot out with drug dealers in the projects in Far Rockaway. Scott was horribly out gunned, while he was trying to reload his .38 in a stairwell one of the drug dealers got up behind him and executed him. That got us speedloaders. There was another cop who was killed in a similar incident (God forgive me for forgetting his name) that finally convinced the liberal, cop hating City government to allow us to get 9mms.

Could you imagine the headlines if the NYPD even mentioned trying to go to a larger caliber? "Cops want bigger guns so they can more effectively kill the poor, underpriviledged, 8th grade honor students of the city". At one point our great former Mayor "Do Nothing" Dave Dinkins wanted to down grade our guns from .38 to .32. It wasn't until Bill Bratton (greatest PC since Teddy Roosevelt) became Commissioner that we finally had a leader with the brains and balls to take on City Hall and get us 9mms.

And yes, there is the financial and logistical problem of purchasing weapons and training for 36,000+ Police Officers. If they ever did change calibers though it would probably follow the same pattern as the 9mm switch. All new recruits get the new caliber, any veteran officers have the option of switching or they can keep the gun they were originally issued. The NYPD is the largest law enforcement agency in the world. In fact it's the same size as the world's 10th largest standing army (or so I'm told). So you can see why we change weapons as often as the US Army. I think the Model 10 shared a reign similar to the 1911-A1.

The NYPD is also about 20-25 years behind the rest of law enforcement in terms of technology and equipment. Only recently has my Precinct gotten a real computer system. Before that we had computers that were running mostly DOS based programs. Our 911 dispatch system is another mess. This Department builds new facilities about as often as the Yankees build a new stadium. And this summer we're finally getting new radios for the first time in about 20 years. I'm surprised we're still not driving Gran Furies. The press and a good deal of the citizens in this City hate seeing us get anything new. When our Highway Patrol got Hemi Dodge Chargers there were people writing to editorial pages demanding to know why the cops need a car that fast.

I would safely bet that I'll have my 5946 on my hip until I'm collecting a pension.

 

[DMK]

MTS Cop, you remind me of why I left NY. I'll hoist a beer for you guys.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Because it allows them to SPRAY the area and the perp cheaply.

dhoomonyou,
Was that necessary? IMO that was completely uncalled for and totally offensive to the good men and women who serve NY City doing a dangerous job most people won't do. There was no reason for your comment other than to offend others and it added nothing to the discussion. Shame on you!

 

[MTS Cop]

Thanks ArchAngel. I've learned by now to just shut my mouth regarding these "50 shots" comments, but it's nice to know the entire world hasn't indicted us as trigger happy lunatics. And enjoy that beer DKM. I'll have to have one for the few people out there who recognize what a crappy city New York is to be a cop in.

 

[dhoomonyou]

ArchAngelCD

My Uncle was a cop in NYC for over 20 years, he saw both the good and the bad of the streets and the force, my comment was not made to offend the GOOD people of the NYPD, just those hat deserve it.
Before My uncle died he saw what had become of the force, due to politics, corruption and lack of training.
My intention was not in inflame.

 

[jeremy76]

In reality a 9MM will kill someone just as dead as a .40 will. The 9MM has always been underrated the .40 has always been overrated. Neather will go threw a vest and the 9MM is far more controlable at rapid fire. I would rather see a police department stay with 9MM and spend the upgrade money on something to make the officer more effective such as crimson trace lasers or AR15's for when fire power is neded.

 

[biscuitninja]

I think if you just trained a tad bit more with shot placement then you'd yeild better results. I'm very surpurised that nobody has stuck with the .45. Why change an absolute great round?
good luck
-bix