NYPD Hwy Patrol pulls Mossberg from duty

[MCgunner]

I actually like the Ithaca 37 more than the 870, but there's a reason that the 870 is still the gold standard of comparision when it comes to pump guns.

Not for a while, now. Remington survives on it's name with people that don't have a clue. The old Wingmasters were good guns, just not MY "gold standard". Mossberg, Winchester, Ithaca, and Browning are all better guns IMHO for various reasons. The Browning BPS is my favorite, but the Mossy is more affordable, rugged, and has the good ergos of the Browning. I just consider it a poor man's Browning, though the Browning ain't all THAT expensive, really, a few hundred more. The smoothest were the Ithaca/Browning bottom eject actions and Winchesters. My old Mossy has smoothed out, but was a little rough when new. It's been firing heavy waterfowl loads, lots of 3", for 20 years of constant duck and goose hunting. If I every wear it out, I'll just buy another one. What's the big deal at the price point? Ain't like it's a superposed or something.

 

[rhoggman]

Many who have dealt with government agencies have seen this kind of announcement all too often. It is generally known as a "Slam Letter" and can come in the form of a press release or public announcement. This particular Slam Letter was apparently sent to the New York Post for distribution.

The purpose of a Slam Letter by a public agency serves the purpose of forcing a private sector vendor into complying with a demand from that agency or to punish that vendor for non-compliance with a demand. The NYPD is famous for their "Slam Letter" campaigns and have even gotten thousands of new guns and free service from Glock using this tactic. I suspect that Mossberg is falling victim to this underhanded tactic because the NYPD was requesting something pretty unreasonable from them. Why would Mossberg not go out of their way to please the world's largest police agency? Especially when that agency is known for using tactics like this.

This is definitely a case of "Shame on the NYPD" and not one of "Shame on Mossberg".

This story will play out with a future announcement of some type of FREE product or service from Mossberg, and the lingering black eye that Mossberg will have to wear.

Insight is Everything..... If this is accurate, then I note that you have great insight..... Makes sense to me, especially considering they are talking about the Mossberg 590A1.

 

[hub]

Plastic safeties, plastic trigger assemblies, action bars where they join the forend tube, broken ejectors, extractors that come loose or break, the springs don't seem to be very good throughout and the overall build quality is usually pretty so-so.

I was under the impression we were talking about the 590 since that is what the thread is about and what was recalled. I was also kinda hoping you would post facts not personal opinions.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 590 have a strengthened receiver, metal safety, and an aluminum trigger group.

Unless Mossberg uses sub par metal that I don't know about and seriously doubt, broken ejectors, extractors, and springs are not anymore prone to break on the 590 compared to the 870 or any other pump for that matter. That is unless in your opinion the screw in ejector of the Mossberg is a lesser quality design. I however would prefer to be able to buy a new one and install it myself in seconds if I ever needed to. I still consider that personal preference. The rattling forearm caused by the connection of the action bars to the tube is supposedly called a feature not a flaw. I don't know if I buy that one though, but if one somehow breaks it's a simple cheap fix I can do myself in minutes.

I hate to come off like a Mossberg fanboy and in all honesty I would rather have a Browning BPS, Ithaca 37 Featherlight, Remington 870 Wingmaster, instead of a Mossberg 590 or 500. I'm not really into tactical shotguns too much so the 590 does not really appeal to me and my 500a gets the job done just fine for what I need from it so it's not because it's less reliable, or not as smooth, it's more about looks, the quality of wood and blueing finish for me.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Mossberg ought to pull a Ronnie Barrett on 'em, if the 'slam letter' theory is correct.

lpl

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things....

I've yet to see a worn out Mossberg 500 series. Even the one I had, a former C&P Railroad shotgun that looked like a steaming pile went bang on command and only then. IIRC, it was $65 out the door.

Police and Correctional weapons get abused and neglected in ways hard to comprehend.

I recall one 1200 that had a soda bottle cap in place of a mag follower.

Another had an action bar with a visible bend.

870s earned their place in armories because they keep working despite pitiful PM, abuse and use by less than well trained and motivated personnel.

I seriously doubt Mossbergs are any less robust in actual use, though actual shooting life may be shorter.

 

[Bad Hammer]

........when NYPD weapon experts found "intermittent" problems with the firing pin........

So, their "experts" identified it as an "intermittent" problem with the firing pin.
You'd think those same "experts" would be able to get together and identify the problem.
I believe many of us here on this board would be able to identify this problem in fairly short order.
Either the firing pin is secure in it's channel and isn't hindered in it's movement, or it isn't.
Either it has the specified protrusion or it doesn't.
It is entirely possible that their 590's were a special contract run to meet their particular specs, and it's also entirely possible that Mossberg had a bad batch of firing pins and or bolt assemblies.
But given that I'd think such a scenario would have shown up during the training classes to get all their officers qualified with their issue weapon.
Either they performed as expected during the courses, or they failed "intermittently".
But that is one hell of an assumption on my part.
I'm interested to hear how this turns out.



....me thinks I smell a carp.....

 

[tactikel]

Would they be want'n to sell any of those "defective" shotguns?

 

[shotgunjoel]

Mossberg ought to pull a Ronnie Barrett on 'em, if the 'slam letter' theory is correct.

Little bit different, they are having "problems," not banning them.

Would they be want'n to sell any of those "defective" shotguns?

Nope, they'll all get melted down, then Bloomberg will whine about all the pollution in the air (from the guns that he melted down). Oh, and it will cost the city a bunch of money to destroy the guns, as opposed to making a lot of money selling them.

 

[Jack2427]

OK guys, lets get back to the real problem; that is the NYPD decided to pull 75 590A1s off the street because they had a preceived malfunction in one or more weapons on the range.
Here is how this kind of thing works: Range guy observes or finds a malfunction, and does not know what has happened. He notifies his supervisor, who then notifies bosses up the chain of command.
PDs tend to be paranoid about weapons they issue, if a cop gets hurt or killed because a department issued weapon malfunctions, all sorts of bad things start to happen, and those bad things tend to start at the top of the command food chain and go downhill. Eventually, as in the military there HAS to be someone responsible. So no one wants to be the guy who says "this is just one malfunction, let the other guns stay in the field". Not only does no one want to be the guy who let a malfunctioning weapon let someone get hurt or dead, but it is also a career stopper, and possibly a pension killer. This had nothing to do with Mossbergs being good or bad, it had to do with how police departments function.
This whole kerfuffle has more to do with bureaucrats than guns.
This time the situation was probably viewed a particularly acute because Mossberg was a recent addition to the arsenal at NYPD. Add to that the fact that no one probably knew the exact reason for the malfunction, and bingo, an overreaction-or maybe not.
The Chicago PD had a real problem with Winchester 1200s, they replaced Winchester 97s and 12s which were high quality guns, albeit old and hard to get parts for. The 1200 turned out to be a disaster of a shotgun for police use.
In NYPD the Highway unit frequently finds itself cut off by expressway traffic from real rapid assistance in an emergency, which is why they got new shotguns in the first place. The someone freaks out thinking "what if" and they recall the guns till they know what the problem is. Not necessarily a bad idea under the circumstances.
Remember this had nothing to do with the quality of Mossbergs, the fact that they had them in the first place indicates that they had come through a testing process with a good reputation. They replaced Ithaca 37s which everyone agrees was a really good gun, just had a bad feature-the slam fire, which can cause ADs with guys who are not really skilled or are just tired after a long shift.
I never felt underarmed with a Mossberg, particularly a 590A1, and this whole thing simply has nothing whatsoever to do with the gun.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

870s take impact abuse better thanks to their steel reciever and seem less subject to small parts breakage as well. But anyways I'd be upset and probably have trouble adjusting if I had to trade in a smooth old Ithaca 37 for any recently manufactured pump gun.

I was going to post in this thread, and then I realized there would be more metalHURRgy than I could stomach

 

[Jack2427]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but the NYPD Highway unit never had the Ithacas, they simply got them as a temporary replacement for the 590s. I would wager a goodly sum that those Mossbergs are going to be back in the Highway cars before long, if not already.
I would bet my pension (meager as it is) that there was never any intent to "slam" Mossberg or anyone else, just a (possible) overreaction on the part of someone in the NYPD chain of command.
Most PDs that have Ithacas are trying to get rid of them, or at least keep them in reserve because of the above mentioned slam fire situation, didn't used to be an issue, but in todays more lawsuit prone society you cannot take even a little chance with potential liability.
Actually I like the slam fire capability, in VN we could empty the mag (4shots, big deal) in a heartbeat by just holding the trigger back and pumping really fast.
Lest anyone think I am kidding about the slam fire problem, if you get to Chicago, visit one of the old police stations, you will see photos of the mayor in the oddest places, up near the ceiling near a corner, or the like. Behind those photos you will find a 00 buckshot hole-from someone unloading his Ithaca and then slamming the action shut while being careless with his trigger finger, The guns were unloaded and reloaded each shift.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The NYPD's entire fleet of Highway Patrol officers was pulled from their posts and rushed to a Bronx firing range yesterday

Good time to do some serious speeding!

 

[RP88]

simply making sure the guns worked would have sufficed. This is a bureaucratic ****storm for no reason but to waste money, it seems.

It's known as "snobbery". The opinion that my preference or choice is superior to your preference or choice.
We see it everywhere. Cars, trucks, beer, cigarettes, etc..
It seems that if you choose anything different than someone else, you've made a serious tactical mistake.
There is absolutely zero documented evidence to back it up.
But it's still a very popular game.
And often a lot of fun to watch.

You have no idea. Handgun caliber threads, AR threads referring to the milspec chart, and Colt/Glock/Sig/HK/Beretta/XD threads never get old and keep popcorn value every time.

 

[Golden_006]

I don't know much about mossberg. I do know NYPD and they're mostly meatheads. Who knows what they did to that gun. They'll take just about anybody these days. Police in outer suburb areas go through pretty intensive testing and are pretty selective, and of course the pay is better, much better; in fact nearly double w/ OT.

I'm not sure about this but technically these shotguns could show up in like some surplus stores that have nypd stuff. But since you're only allowed 5 rounds i doubt they would. Not to mention when i went to one of said stores, the owner didn't want to show me anything because i didn't have a permit. I was thinking of a home defense mossberg if I ever get that damn permit ( I applied today), since I'll be "house sitting" in nyc for the next 4-6 months. I went and applied for the permit and after I was done, and $240 later, was like: "so i'll see you in 11 weeks right"? She was like "try 8 months".

 

[MTS Cop]

If no one has realized it yet, the NYPD is about as far behind in weapons as a major PD can be. We didn't go to 9mms until 1993, and at first they were with 10 round magazines. The Mossbergs are replacing Ithacas that have been in service since at least the 1980s. After 9/11 Ruger donated a bunch of Mini 14s to the NYPD to help replace equipment that was lost. Those rifles were kept on ice for almost eight years, they were finally issued to Headquarters Security and Harbor a few months ago. And there are still some officers carrying S&W Model 10s and 64s, despite offering these officers semi auto replacements for free. For a department so unacustomed to change I can see why they would throw a fit when their new shotguns began to malfunction.

The last time the NYPD sold surplus weapons was in the 1950s. They'll never do it again. When ESU finally replaced their old Mini 14s with M4s the weapons were destroyed. Alot of ESU guys petitioned the brass to let them buy the rifles but they were shot down. The same fate awaits the old Ithacas. And the new Mossbergs have 14 inch barrels, so forget ever seeing them for civilian sale.

 

[Henry-Krinkle]

Yea they almost all the cities agency's are! Even the FDNY is behind on alot of upgrades compared to the rest of the fire department in the country.

HK

 

[Avenger29]

The 590A1 has a steel receiver.

Negative. Aluminum. Not that that's a problem, I have no problem with my AR-15's aluminum receiver.

The NYPD is famous for their "Slam Letter" campaigns and have even gotten thousands of new guns and free service from Glock using this tactic

The Glock 19 malfunction experienced by the NYPD is real. Glock is real touchy about the problems that do exist with some of their models...

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Does this sound a little ludicrous to anyone else? I mean, who was patrolling the highway while all of this went down?

And why on earth do they need to re-qualify with a shotgun?