NYTimes appalled Japan's government urges citizens exercise personal responsibility

[PaladinX13]

Zeke, I know a bit about being raised Chinese too...

I would say that Japanese culture is self destructing... that's one of the criticisms brought up by the film Battle Royale. And a reoccuring theme in their entertainment lately... basically, the they're clinging to traditional behaviors but without the same structures. Loyalty to work and workaholism in a business world that is growing increasingly Western (not showing loyalty back to the employees). Filial duty and absolute obedience to authority... yet families are are fatherless and children neglected. Traditional values and beliefs... and an entire entertainment medium that programs the youth to the contrary. Point being, you can't say "They should have behaved traditionally" when their culture is falling apart (in spirit if not behavior). You tell the kid, "Work hard, be loyal, respect your parents, and live moderately." while suffering from workaholism, getting fired and losing your pension, neglecting your kid, and watching extreme anime.

Regarding Chinese culture, there are similar trappings from confucian behavior (relatively modern even)... but Chinese culture, in a way, is more ancient and pure (in the sense it has been less influenced by Western culture on the whole- not to say it is homogeneous) and therefore has had time to come to terms with its hypocrisies, contradictory philosophies, and schizophrenic culture. A quick example would be the "China doll" wife who's quiet and submissive... but at the same time a strong cultural icon is the intelligent and strong "shrew" wife who controls her passive husband. This contradictory culture, in a way, makes it more adaptable to other cultures in a more moderate and reasonable way than Japan. It's one of the reasons that China has managed to survive as a "communist capitalist" nation. I'm just saying... the issues that affect Japan are very different than China's issues.

 

[Aikibiker]

I thought the topic of discussion here would be about the fact that an American newspaper had a hissy fit when someone suggested that people should take personal responsibility for their own actions, and that government was not responsible for the well being of all people at all times.

I guess I was wrong.

As for how the Japanese wish to treat a group of people that contained at least one antiwar protester that traveled to Iraq specifically to cause trouble for the Japanese war effort and to provide aid and comfort to the enemy, I consider that an internal affair. It is Japan not America. They can do whatever they want to in their country as long as they don't try to force their views on any other country.

I sure wish the majority of Americans would treat our own fifth column of islamist sympathizers with equal scorn.

And finally WildAlaska is right. This thread is degenerating into racism and culture bashing. That was certainly not my intention in starting this thread. I had hoped to start a discussion on socialist tendencies in the media and it's political effects on those of us who wish to take responsibility for our own actions. Mods please feel free to lock this thread at your discretion.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

PaladinX13

I would say that Japanese culture is self destructing... that's one of the criticisms brought up by the film Battle Royale. And a reoccuring theme in their entertainment lately... basically, the they're clinging to traditional behaviors but without the same structures. Loyalty to work and workaholism in a business world that is growing increasingly Western (not showing loyalty back to the employees). Filial duty and absolute obedience to authority... yet families are are fatherless and children neglected. Traditional values and beliefs... and an entire entertainment medium that programs the youth to the contrary. Point being, you can't say "They should have behaved traditionally" when their culture is falling apart (in spirit if not behavior). You tell the kid, "Work hard, be loyal, respect your parents, and live moderately." while suffering from workaholism, getting fired and losing your pension, neglecting your kid, and watching extreme anime.

I'm not really sure I agree with you on the sense that their culture is destroying itself. It certainly has gone away from the days of Bushido and the warrior ethos. In terms, it does have more modern trappings then say China. But, remember that to survive, is to adapt, and in this Japan has gone forward 100%. China, in my opinion, is stagnating and needs to change. I'm a traditionalist by nature, but I like to think I'm flexible enough to discard thousand yr old rules if necessary.

Regarding Chinese culture, there are similar trappings from confucian behavior (relatively modern even)... but Chinese culture, in a way, is more ancient and pure (in the sense it has been less influenced by Western culture on the whole- not to say it is homogeneous) and therefore has had time to come to terms with its hypocrisies, contradictory philosophies, and schizophrenic culture. A quick example would be the "China doll" wife who's quiet and submissive... but at the same time a strong cultural icon is the intelligent and strong "shrew" wife who controls her passive husband. This contradictory culture, in a way, makes it more adaptable to other cultures in a more moderate and reasonable way than Japan. It's one of the reasons that China has managed to survive as a "communist capitalist" nation. I'm just saying... the issues that affect Japan are very different than China's issues.

China does seem to have a more "pure" take on it's background but the contradiction in its culture is the practical part of human nature coming out. Unfortunately, not all people are practical and tend to let emotions and religous fanaticism ruin their lives. (Think Middle-East). Good response though PaladinX13.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Aikibiker,

How is this a culture and race bashing thread? I don't detect any of that at all. We are simply discussing how cultures can look at a particular political issue and see two different events. I guess my point about understanding cultural differences is being lost to some.......

 

[PaladinX13]

Aikibiker, the problem is you're getting caught up in the Japanese government's rhetoric. The exact same words can be said and take on entirely different meanings. For example, in America, generally speaking we do not negotiate with terrorists. In Japan, paying out for ransoms is regular practice.

For a government that says "We are not responsible for you" they don't act like it... from their draconian laws, police state conviction rates, and negotiating with terrorists. This was their two-faced way of saying, "You didn't conform" as far as I can tell the writer's criticism has less to do with responsibility and more about this issue of conformity. Again, the writer was Japanese... I garantee you his beef (and a Japanese disobeying "okami" by criticizing his nation from his American job) is more a criticism of Japan's culture than some liberal allegiance to a NYTimes agenda (which isn't to say that can't be there too).

 

[rayra]

how about everyone getting past Oriental Shame Constructs and Media Distortion, and do a little google search - read how the 18yr-old man was a 'peace activist-journalist', there to report on the effects of Depleted Uranium, how the older woman was a pro at aid work, and how they all three very likely were there to STAGE the kidnapping to force japan's disengagement from Iraq.

 

[Wildalaska]

Wild, don't get over sensitive about this

Why not, I despise rascism, Ive made that clear over and over again on this Board.

The article was written by a Japanese person about the Japanese

Not the article thats the problem here

Further, those critizing the issues Japan has as a nation are still- in general- recognizing the difference those individuals exhibited.

Bulls**t! Bulls**t Look at the words "cowards" ,"dangerous nation", "join the human race" (yeah stop being such mindless salnt eyed yellow ants eh), "National cowardice ".......gimme a break....

The fact that you're painting your wife, an individual, with our national criticism might show that you're bunching the Japanese together more than we?

Im not painting my wife with anyhting, Im the one hearing that her people are a bunch of midnless fanatical dangerous cowards....ya didnt hear me calling her that did ya? Im not the one slandering an entire nation, nor individual memebers of that culture, without probably one half of one per cent of the slightest idea of the cultural u8ndeprinnings of over 2000 years of hsitory.

Now if your wife believes what she belives purely because it's Japanese national policy and a passive desire to make the least amount of waves... then, maybe, Jim's comments could be directed towards her......

There ya have it..my wife IS THUS AN IDIOT AND A COWARD. Simply because she, like many other Japanese, beleive it is wrong to do something that is frowned upon.

Heck, the fact that she married you and is in this country suggests she's more an individual than "okami" worshipper, don't you think? In fact, I imagine her choices have come at some personal cost. What if she obeyed "okami" to it's utmost? Doubt you'd be married...

What are you living in Madame Butterfly land? You and your cronies projecting your own dislike of miscegenation on my wifes family?. What, just because I am a white boy that means she was breaking the bounds of family and social conventions to get married...

And where are you getting thsi Okami thing...from some times writer? Guess what, my wife is laughing at the concept of Okami as expressed by the writer of that story. She thinks he is nisei since "Okami" I guess is somewhat of an archaic term

This whole "we are better than them" thread is a load of crap. Its rascist and disgusting and ain the High Road. The hell with this, Im going over to visit the Stormfront Board, at least the rascists are open and honest over there and dont masquerade as the poster next door.

WildimoutofhereAlaska

 

[PaladinX13]

I'm not really sure I agree with you on the sense that their culture is destroying itself. It certainly has gone away from the days of Bushido and the warrior ethos. In terms, it does have more modern trappings then say China. But, remember that to survive, is to adapt, and in this Japan has gone forward 100%. China, in my opinion, is stagnating and needs to change. I'm a traditionalist by nature, but I like to think I'm flexible enough to discard thousand yr old rules if necessary.

I agree about adaptation... China made many early advances which made it not see the need for change and thus put it behind the loop on innovation... however, Japan tends to take on change in a way that is inherently un-asian. Generally speaking, Western innovation and change is considered to be taken in leaps and bounds. Inventors are heroes and inventions are radically different. Movers and shakers, whether in business, politics, or technology are admired. The asian approach is more organic, slow and steady and incremental improvements to existing designs. The group contributes to the group.

I'm not saying Japan isn't trying to adapt, but the means of adaptation is contradictory to some fundamental philosophies of how their society works. It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. In the end, they will have a culture but a radically different one from Asian or Western ones.

China, meanwhile, is slow and steady. Their history isn't defined by landmark court cases or civil rights leaders... everything comes gradually and- more or less- naturally. Stubbornly, they resist change and only do so when absolutely necessary. While this is dangerous, IMO, their cultural identity will remain intact and their society be less dysfunctional. I mean, most of China's current problems can be traced back to when the government tried to make rapid and radical changes. For example: child limits and mandatory abortions. A modern idea, a seemingly reasonable idea... but with the traditional view of daughters being less valuable than males and having a limit of one child, now China has an epidemic of bachelors.

China does seem to have a more "pure" take on it's background but the contradiction in its culture is the practical part of human nature coming out. Unfortunately, not all people are practical and tend to let emotions and religous fanaticism ruin their lives.

Even towards religion there is a very pragmatic view... I think the saying is something like, "When you're young be an atheist/communist/Maoist and in middle age be a Buddist, in your advanced age become Taoist." To me, this pragmatism will save them from truly ancient and detrimental traditions... but they've got to grow differently than everyone else, IMO.

 

[Chuck Jennings]

This reminds me of an old proverb:

"The nail that sticks out must be hammered down."


The Japan .gov is trying to assert its control over people under the guise of "personal responsibility". How's that for newspeak!! :banghead:

 

[PaladinX13]

Wildalaska, it looks like your on a witch hunt for racism... and definitely over sensitive. Essentially, in your mind, if I disagree with a culture then I'm a racist. Unlike America, Japan is much more homogenous, so it's easier to make claims about its national culture. No different than levelling criticism at a political culture in this country like a "liberal"... only if you have a highly homogenous nation (minus the generational issues discussed above) adopting those views.

Bulls**t! Bulls**t Look at the words "cowards" ,"dangerous nation", "join the human race" (yeah stop being such mindless salnt eyed yellow ants eh), "National cowardice ".......gimme a break....

You can swear all you like, it doesn't change the fact that several of us extol the virtues of those that didn't conform.

Im not painting my wife with anyhting, Im the one hearing that her people are a bunch of midnless fanatical dangerous cowards....ya didnt hear me calling her that did ya? Im not the one slandering an entire nation, nor individual memebers of that culture, without probably one half of one per cent of the slightest idea of the cultural u8ndeprinnings of over 2000 years of hsitory.

Over reaction again. Slander only works if there isn't truth to it (again, largely homogenous nation). You've got a nice double standard working for you though... you're free to rampantly label liberals or anyone else you disagree with, but when it hits home its slander, eh? If you want to have a conversation with no precepts then there's nothing to discuss... ever. BTW, I've lived in Japan, HK, and Taiwan for various stretches. I've been involved with my share of Japanese (Korean, Hispanic, Indian, and Caucasian) girls... but guess what? That doesn't mean their culture is immune to criticism anymore than ours is.

I think you're seriously confusing your wife with her nation and culture... you need to seperate the two.

There ya have it..my wife IS THUS AN IDIOT AND A COWARD. Simply because she, like many other Japanese, beleive it is wrong to do something that is frowned upon.

I wouldn't call her a coward, but if her only measure of wrong is whether something is frowned upon.... I guess we oughta turn in all our guns then. BTW, look what you just did... "like many other Japanese." Seriously, man.

Regarding any stigma your wife may have suffered from marrying you, yes, absolutely, that was an assumption on my part. And why not? "like many other Japanese...."

 

[Jim March]

Now wait a cotton pickin' second here.

We HAVE to be able to discuss cultural differences on this forum. Race and culture are NOT THE SAME, nowhere close.

OK, forget Asia, let's look at an example closer to home:

According to FBI/US-DOJ statistics, in those cases where a murder happens in the US and the race of the murderer is known (around 10,000 cases a year or therabouts), about 55% of the time the murderer is black. Those are 2002 numbers, but they don't vary too much over the years. Blacks make up 15% of America's population.

Now there are three, and only three, possible explainations for that:

1) Blacks are racially inclined to murder (and presumably other criminal activity). I don't buy that for a second!

2) The FBI/US-DOJ (Uniform Criminal Reports, go look for yourself, it's all online) are wrong. That too seems pretty unlikely, although it might explain a small fraction of what's happening.

3) There's something cultural going on. And when you also look at urban black culture in other ways, esp. the "hip-hop culture", this just screams out as the most likely alternative.

OK, so let's assume it's #3 above.

Next, you have to ask how that culture got there. What the hell happened? The answers involve insane drug prohibitions, long-term economic disparities, the destruction of family structures back in the slave days and more recently with screwed-up welfare policies driving families apart, deliberate "apartied" in various forms ending only about 30 - 40 years ago, and a lot more. I could go on for days. The point here is that we're now looking at a culture that is...well, "sick" in the medical-psychological sense.

Entire cultures can turn mentally ill.

Clayton Cramer has carefully documented the violence and murder rates of the white Mississippi river valley culture of 1820ish through about 1850 as the single worst area and time of white-on-white violence this nation has ever faced. It was cured through CULTURAL changes, in that case religion and the rise of that area as what we now know as the "bible belt". So we are NOT immune. (For that matter, later white racism up through the 1960s wasn't real sane either.)

Why do we care about this? Because it's these cultural violence trends that really cause societal violence, and gun control is NEVER the solution. Clayton studied the particular Mississippi river valley cutlure because that area produced a wave of state-level gun control laws (mostly on concealed weapons bans) and we was trying to figure out why those laws were passed. (Gun control didn't work, a cultural shift did, mostly.) In the same way, inner city cultural violence is driving gun control today, with similar poor results.

We MUST track cultural trends, or we'll never understand the real roots of societal violence.

Now let's go back to Japan a sec.

Japan did NOT have a "warrior culture"...not among the majority of the population they didn't! The Bushido were hardcases, yes, but they had the legal right to kill any non-Bushido farmer/trader/whatever at any time, for any reason. There was a specific TERM in Japanese for the practice of test-cutting a brand new sword on the first peasant to walk by. Granted, it wasn't common, but for there to be a WORD for that practice speaks disgusting volumes both about the savagery of the Bushido class and the COWARDICE of everybody else.

OK, so in 1864, the Portugese were sick and tired of the Bushido. They got in the way of business deals on a regular basis. They gave the Emperor a big pile of rifles, helped train a peasant army, who attacked the Shogun and ended up piling Samurai heads up 20ft or more. By 1868, the wearing of swords was banned.

No more Samurai. (This was very poorly and innacurately dealt with in that recent idiotic Tom Cruise movie.)

Ooops. Guess what? 900+ years of institutionalized cowardice in the rest of the population, a culture literally ingrained with respect for authority, didn't go away. The emperor now got all the respect and the level of unthinking obedience to him rose steadily until it all blew up in WW2.

That put a hink in things, but there are cultural trends STILL in play that yes, are potentially dangerous. The only thing that's prevented dictatorship so far is the parlamentary government we installed.

But they're still clearly ripe for totalitarian control.

If you want a much better example of a screwed up culture, we'll get into the Arab Wahabbis if anybody wants to stomach that. It's extremely dangerous because it's being exported en mass via the "Madrassas" pumped (literally) via Saudi oil money.

 

[Geech]

Interesting. Do you have any links that go into more detail regarding the Clayton Cramer river valley study?

 

[Wildalaska]

Mr March, your lack of understanding of Japanese history and culture is as appalling as blatant rascist remarks you have made again..

Too bad, I used to admire you as one of the more reasonable people on this Board in connection with political matters. I guess I was wrong...

PaladinX, I wont even dignify your remarks with a response.

Thank god for ignore buttons....

Im done.

 

[Jim March]

WA: there are laws on the books in Japan that wouldn't be tolerated not only in the US, but even in Europe. Their criminal "justice" system is just a start. Stock market and other financial corruption is another...that's what really took down their entire economy when the falsely-inflated Tokyo real estate market imploded. (At one point, the paper "value" of all of Tokyo's real estate exceeded the value of every piece of land in the entire US...and business loans and investments were made on that basis. They still haven't recovered.)

If you disagree with what I'm saying, by all means educate us. I'd like to hear another explanation for what went catastrophically wrong with that culture back in WW2 and just prior (such as the Japanese campaign in China, Nanking, etc.). People don't go that completely bananas without some fairly deep driving force. If it wasn't cultural, what WAS it, in your opinion?

You haven't even made a dent in my basic position that cultures ARE different and affect violence levels.

Is insults all you have left to debate with?

Geech: Clayton published the first couple chapters and a synopsis of his findings online, when the book "Concealed Weapon Laws of the Early Republic: Dueling, Southern Violence, and Moral Reform" first came out. He spoke on the subject at the CounterAttack conferences.

You can see the intro and first chapter here: http://www.claytoncramer.com/concealed.pdf

His list of books are linked from here:

http://www.claytoncramer.com

Interestingly, when he began his research into these early pre-civil-war Southern gun control laws, he expected these laws to have been aimed at blacks...he is, after all, the author of "Racist Roots Of Gun Control" covering mainly the post-civil-war period to present. But that wasn't the case; in that earlier period, Southern laws disarming blacks weren't really needed because it happened automatically as a cultural thing regardless of laws.

They were trying, unsuccessfully, to halt white-on-white violence...something which to this day is more common in the South than elsewhere, although vastly improved over the pre-1850ish period. (And yes, you're reading this right, they had it more or less under control *before* the civil war broke out in 1861).

 

[Indepbias]

Sad day

It is very sad to see a NY Times writer bash his native country for reprimanding citizens who took matter in their own hands. From what I gather from different news reports is that the Japanese Gov't stated that the individuals caused a lot of grief not only for the country but for their families ... I beg to ask what is wrong with that?

But I get it ... here in America, where being "politically correct" is more important than what's right or wrong, of course we will feel sympathy first and think about the actions that led up to the event later.

One quote in particular sums this up ... "He who dares not to offend, cannot be honest." The Japanese gov't have their opinion ... us Americans really jumped on Jane Fonda in the 70's ... if she were captured by the enemy .. we would have been saying the same thing.

JG Greene

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Wild Alaska: It's spelled "racist."

Why is it that when French culture is so vigorously attacked here, no one calls it racist?

Wild, no one has said anything the least bit racist here. Race and culture are different, and you seem to lack the objectivity to step back and realize that no one is slamming the Japanese for being Japanese. They are slamming the culture.

Just like we slam French culture. Or collectivist culture. Or victimization culture. Or jihadist culture.

Take a deep breath, take a few sips of your intoxicant of choice, and consider that your opinion of Jim and others was right the first time.

 

[Tom Bri]

In Japan, people who are rescued in mountaineering accidents have to pay the government costs of their rescue. This incident is no different. They were told it was dangerous to go, they went anyway, and they went directly to Falluja, of all places. People here in Japan are pissed that these people are risking not themselves, but the Japanese troops who are in Iraq now.

My Japanese wife grumbles that she doesn't want her tax money used to fly these idiots around the world. It was their own choice to go and face the risk, now they expect a free ride back. Their families making all sorts of left-wing political demands pisses people off too.

Incidently, two other Japanese were also captured in Falluja a few days later, then released. Their families maintained a dignified silence, and those two men are not receiving anything like the treatment the first three are.

 

[PaladinX13]

There are two issues here. The first, is a criticism of Japanese culture. The second, is whether the rational criticism of the hostages has merit.

Regarding the first, the issue here is whether the Japanese criticized out of tradition and collectivism first, then rationalized second. By all accounts they would have been shunned on the outset for being different or aiding foreigners regardless of threat level or whether they had been captured or not. Their capture simply gave those ready to condemn them more ammunition to shame them with... Asian culture is very much about the passive aggresive, "See? Told you so." Again, the heart of the condemnation is, "Toe the line." Blindly do what the government tells you. Post capture, suddenly they can complain about threat, costs, etc. as an excuse to shun... arguments that, now, aren't entirely without merit.

Regarding the second. Again I go back to intent and timing. If there was the intent to cause harm, stage their capture, etc. then they are scum. If there wasn't then, at worst, they're guilty of bad judgment. So then it's a question of judgment... was there a clear and present danger of capture? Of having Japanese involvement in Iraq stymied?

Well on the last question, I suppose there is. The Japanese regularly capitulate in hostage situations, so the question is whether there was a clear and present danger of capture. As of now, there are MANY interational relief workers in Iraq- including Falluja; including Americans. What you don't hear is a national outrage on our part that Americans should dare to go over and show compassion and aide to civilians. Further over this past month, there has been casualties amongst the relief workers (I know of at least one incident where 3 died and 2 were injured). Again, you don't hear us crying, "They deserved it!" Also, no one is crying for them to get out of Iraq for some supposed risk (as if you can predict being taken hostage to begin with)... because they know the costs and how it'll be paid.

Costs of those who decide to risk themselves are borne out on themselves, but in Japanese culture, the government bails you out, takes responsibility for you, then chastises you for not taking responsibility. If you want citizens to be responsible you have to let them be responsible for the consequences too... if you don't then you get irresponsible people who EXPECT to be taken care of. Which is where these "left wing" demands may be stemming from (though without hearing the demands I have no idea whether they are anymore leftist than the way the gov't claims "personal responsibility"). I suspect the insurgents know this as well which is why they've specifically targeted the Japanese... expecting capitulation.

Regarding the two other hostages... I wonder whether there is "dignity" in the silence or if they were simply cowed into it by the treatment of the other hostages? Again, the biggest issue is conformity and not making waves.

The Japanese stance on relief workers is like the Leftist stance on government information sharing. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If GWB had, on day one of his presidency, said, "CIA and FBI, share all your intel." we would have been looking at an extreme outrage for the violation of civil liberties and privacy and GWB would haven been booted from office. If you don't do it, well we end up where we are now.

 

[PaladinX13]

To simplify... I'd ask your wife this: Are all relief workers in Iraq right now "idiots" or just the Japanese ones because their government, culture, society, etc. doesn't back them (and never will)? Also, if the the Japanese gov't didn't want to pay the costs then why did they?

 

[Jim March]

In Japan, people who are rescued in mountaineering accidents have to pay the government costs of their rescue.

Let me add that when I was growing up along the Northern California coast and my dad had small boats in which we went WAY the heck out to sea, we lived under the same rules! And had no problem with it.

'Cept for that time when I was about 13 and had the carburetor of our 15-year-old Johnson outboard completely disassembled trying to figure out what was gunked while we drifted south towards LA because my pop always was a mechanical idiot . But I *did* get that sucker running again. Another time we were coming back into Half Moon Bay's harbor from the North on fumes, and had to run Devil's Reef's "back passage" rather than the usual three mile southwards detour like you're supposed to. We had a lot of other weird adventures but we never had to pay Coast Guard towing fees, ever .

So that ain't the issue here, not in my book.

 

[Tom Bri]

Paladin said: To simplify... I'd ask your wife this: Are all relief workers in Iraq right now "idiots" or just the Japanese ones because their government, culture, society, etc. doesn't back them (and never will)? Also, if the the Japanese gov't didn't want to pay the costs then why did they?...

They aren't, they are billing the hostages part of the costs, and a media group that one was a member of is paying part. I don't know the breakdown.

My personal feelings are mixed. These three are pretty obviously leftoid idiots, going over there thinking, I suppose, that they would be loved and accepted by Iraqis because of the purity of their souls, or whatever. Their goals seemed to be making political statements, scoring points back home, rather than helping Iraqis. There are plenty of freelance Japanese newsmen running around Iraq, and every other dangerous part of the world. No problem with me. I guess what I am trying to say, not very well, is that these three get less sympathy because of the things they and their families said, not what they did by going to Iraq.

By the way, I am more sympathetic to them than a lot of people here. I think they are a bit silly, running straight to the battlezone and expecting Iraqis to accept them with open arms, but they did show more spine than the average person.

As an aside, there have been some denigrations of Japanese society that I don't think hold true. Go to any didaster in the world and you will find Japanese aid workers, mainly private, paid for by themselves or small town groups. The Japanese don't hate foreigners, any more than most Americans. As a broad generalisation I would say that Japanese are more knowledgeable about and sympathetic to foreign countries than Americans.

 

[Pendragon]

Mr March, your lack of understanding of Japanese history and culture is as appalling as blatant rascist remarks you have made again..

Too bad, I used to admire you as one of the more reasonable people on this Board in connection with political matters. I guess I was wrong...

PaladinX, I wont even dignify your remarks with a response.

Thank god for ignore buttons....

Im done.


__________________
Remember, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours.....

Well, Mister March did seem to be speaking a bit off the cuff.

He seems to have missed the date of the Battle of Nagashino by around 300 years.

Since Japanese History is not topic of this forum, I think we can grant him a little leeway on that one.

However, you said:

Mr March, your lack of understanding of Japanese history and culture is as appalling as blatant rascist remarks you have made again..

Am I to understand that you find a spotty recollection of Japanese History equally appalling as "blatant racist remarks"?

REALLY?


We may or may not be drawing improper or poorly reasoned conclusions about Japanese culture and history. If such errors or false conclusions were made, they were made honestly and without malice.

Yet, you have assumed the worst of several people here. People who are held in high regard for their insight, accomplishments and tenure in this community. Was it inflation or hard times that placed the benefit of the doubt so out of reach?

You claim the remarks were blatant but if they exist at all, they are certainly not "blatant".

Please explain the racist content in any of the posts in this thread. Racial issues in this country are tense because so many people have a hard time discussing them without getting emotional. Further, when people do come close to making a point or when someone feels threatened, they "play the race card" which usually involves:

1. Act incredibly offended.

2. Without identifying the specific racist content, insist that it is too offensive or you are too wounded to even discuss it further.

3. Imply that the racist content is so obvious that it does not need to be identified and that the inability to see it is, in fact, proof of racism.

4. Making a scene on the way out. This helps to further cement your victim status and also relieves you of the need to explain yourself or defend your positon.


I have not seen anyone on here claim to be a racist and I believe that everyone who has posted or read this thread would be very interested in hearing which parts were offensive and why the material is offensive.


What I saw (and made) were comments made about cultures and our perceptions of certain aspects of those cultures. Further, value judgements were made about certain aspects of certain cultures.

Nobody said that people of asian descent were incapable of or had a genetic predisposition towards any specific behavior.

So, here I am - educate me, enlighten me, raise my conciousness, whatever.

Or just keep on dealing....

 

[Jim March]

Wait...I'm 300 years off?



OK, I'm madly googling now .

The "Meiji Restoration" began 1868 by most accounts. Dates of the final banning of swords seem to vary between 1868 and 1874:

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/japanese.html

http://leicesterkendo.users.btopenworld.com/What_is_kendo.htm

And so on. I suspect that like gun control in the US, sword control was..."phased in", explaining the different "final dates".

A number of sources point to Kyoto as the last holdout of the Shogunate and the scene of a number of battles right around the time of our Civil War:

http://ridgebackpress.com/center.htm#kyoto

...etc.

So it looks like the main thing I screwed up was the "Portugese Rifles" bit, and that the final switch from Shogunate to full control by the Emperor (and those close to him) wasn't as..."immediate" as I'd thought. So ya, I got some details mixed up, though not all of the broad strokes. Ooops.

With THAT said, based on the level of control the aristocracy had over the population until very recent times, the absolutely wacked-out behavior of WW2 and prior and modern cultural trends...

OK, give you an example. Tamaguchis (sp?). Yes, those strange little electronic "keychain pets". And other items marketed to Japanese kids/teens.

If you study marketing trends on such items in Japan, you get the clear idea that "fads" are FAR more pervasive than in the US. Sure, we see fads in toys or teen gear, but *nothing* like in Japan. The latest craze hits a HUGE chunk of the target demographic if it catches on.

http://static.ncss.org/toys.html (and many other such examples, but that's a good one)

Media Influences Small and Cute

Japan is a marketer’s dream. Japanese have more information thrown at them than any group of people in history. The word “blitz†does not adequately describe the situation. Along with national, regional and local newspapers, there are several hundred weekly and monthly magazines, a quarter million public buses and train cars with hundreds of posters, half million taxicabs with places for advertising brochures, billboard trucks that exist only for advertising, public address systems in most large department stores, and more lights, signs, flashing announcements, and electrical displays throughout the Ginza, Roppongi, Shinjuku, Shibuya, Akasaka, Ikebukuro, or Asakusa, all with the underlying message, “buy, buy buy.â€5 Fads can often seem to develop faster in all of Japan than they do in one individual family in America. Extensive media messages have a powerful influence on the youth economy in Japan.

It's...well, a "herd mentality" that starts at a shockingly young age.

And there's something else about Japanese youth culture that's far more screwed up than in the US, something I'm particularly..."concerned" about:

http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~gensei/sch1.htm (slightly broken English, but this is written by a teacher)

http://members.tripod.com/tarachan21/educational system.htm

http://www.lclark.edu/~krauss/advwrf99/causeeffect/akikocause.html (this one is particularly good, from a Japanese exchange student in a US college)

http://perso.fraise.net/liberation-japan-ijime.html

I know a lot about bullying. First hand. But I also know how relatively rare the bullies themselves are in US school...less than 5% even in the worst schools.

In Japan, it's WAY higher. Once a kid becomes a target of bullying, it's more or the less the whole school that turns on him/her, including in too many cases the teachers.

"The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." Sometimes to suicide.

Here's a link I'll take a quote from:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?ek20030313ag.htm

As I reviewed the list, I realized my son was being bullied, and by nearly every child in his class. It was a sickening moment. I felt awful for him. I was furious with his classmates. I questioned our decision to put our kids in Japanese school.

"Every child in his class"? Folks, I had a freakin' stomach ulcer in the 6th grade, I *know* what bullying is, and a whole stinkin' class is...dear God, unfathomable. That flat doesn't happen even in the worst US schools.

It's the *pattern* in Japan.

If there's one thing I know about bullies, it's this: they're cowards. (Remember that term?) I finally learned enough about how those sick SOB's brains work to stand up to 'em...and I've never stopped. (Ever wonder why I basically went gonzo once abused on CCW? Or went ape???? on Diebold? Now you know. I won't ever be bullied again.)

So guess what, folks?

We're seeing the Japanese document an outbreak of mass cowardice across damn near their whole youth.

They probably don't see it quite like that.

I do.

 

[artherd]

Pursuing individual goals by defying the government and causing trouble for Japan was simply unforgivable.

Uh, this isn't an 'encouragement to exercise personal responsibility'.

This is mindless amoral subjugation to a dictatorship.

 

[Tom Bri]

Jim March said:

quote:
As I reviewed the list, I realized my son was being bullied, and by nearly every child in his class. It was a sickening moment. I felt awful for him. I was furious with his classmates. I questioned our decision to put our kids in Japanese school.


"Every child in his class"? Folks, I had a freakin' stomach ulcer in the 6th grade, I *know* what bullying is, and a whole stinkin' class is...dear God, unfathomable. That flat doesn't happen even in the worst US schools.

It's the *pattern* in Japan.

If there's one thing I know about bullies, it's this: they're cowards. (Remember that term?) I finally learned enough about how those sick SOB's brains work to stand up to 'em...and I've never stopped. (Ever wonder why I basically went gonzo once abused on CCW? Or went ape???? on Diebold? Now you know. I won't ever be bullied again.)

So guess what, folks?

We're seeing the Japanese document an outbreak of mass cowardice across damn near their whole youth.
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This is an interesting conversation. On the subject of bullying, just yesterday my friend from India told us that her daughter in second grade is being bullied to the point she refuses to speak and does not want to go to school. They call her dirty, and refuse to play, sit with her. My daughter gets a little, but not so much as she is "cute" by Japanese standards, skinny, pale skinned and round eyed, but some kids tease her. I don't think the bullying is due to cowardice, but rather just for fun. It is a natural human act, that needs to be controlled from above if it is to be controlled. The cowardice is in the adults who refuse to see it or do anything about it. Unfortunately all to often the teachers abet the bullyers rather than stopping them.

In my wild late night bachelor days I saw a number of fights. They are always the same. A bunch of guys surround the victim, knock him to the ground, and begin kicking. Never seen a straight-up one-on-one fight.

I wouldn't say though that Japanese are cowards, at least not physical cowards. There is a huge counter-culture here, and young Japanese don't feel constrained by much of anything, much less by social pressure from above. Young Japanese men seem to love to fight, at least the lower class does. Mass gang fights are common, I have read in the paper about dozens of high school kids leaving their school and going to invade and attack another over slights to girlfriends.

There are a lot of strange cross currents going on now in Japanese culture, it reminds me a lot in some ways of what I remember of the sixties in the US. The kids just don't give a hoot what the old folks have to say. They don't have anything to motivate them like the Vietnam war did the sixties counter culture, they are just blowing up all over the place.

Japanese adults do seem rather cowardly, especially where their jobs are concerned. Many seem able to obey any order form above no matter how dangerous or stupid or illegal. I believe the reputation the Japanese gained in WW2 comes from these two traits. They are physically courageous, not afraid to fight or die, but socially meek, very afraid to buck the boss. Any stupid or morally questionable order was obeyed.