O/U vs. SxS vs. SxS w/ 2 triggers for reliability

[P.B.Walsh]

Which of these 3 designs is the most reliable? I know that the SxS with double triggers and exposed hammers probally takes the cake but from the O/U, and SxS with one trigger which is more reliable.

Trying to deside between one of these and a pump.

Does anyone make a SxS with double triggers and exposed hammers for around $600?

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[ArmedBear]

Two triggers are the most reliable system, since they are extremely simple, and a failure of half the gun generally leaves the other half functional. An inertia switch single trigger system won't switch barrels automatically if you have a FTF, and a mechanical double trigger, while it will, is more complex than two triggers without a switching system.

There's nothing more reliable about external hammers. Internal strikers are going to be far more reliable both intrinsically (they have fewer parts) and practically (they require no manual cocking and can't get hung up on clothing, etc.).

Here's a problem: most cheap double-trigger SxS are made with extractors. That's the last thing I'd want for HD. Automatic selective ejectors would be a must-have.

Now you can certainly get a gun that meets my specs (two triggers or a top-quality mechanical trigger, top-shelf overall build quality -- not pretty, but as close to 100% reliable as possible, automatic selective ejectors, hammerless) but not for 600 dollars. Once you pass $2000, you can find some; once you pass $4000, you can find a good number. I don't know of any such guns made with 20" barrels, but I'm sure that good gunmakers would accomodate a custom order, for a price.

That's why the 870, 500 and 590 are popular... Even shotgunners who are able and willing to pay a lot of money for their scatterguns, don't want to pay that for a gun that sits under the bed.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

What is the difference in extractors and ejectors.

I have a NEF .410 single shot that makes the shell fly out of the barrel when I open it to reload, what would this be?

I am really likeing the Browning Cynergy with the 3.5" chamber (if I had the money that is).

Thanks for helping me, as I am a complete shotgun idiot!!

-P.B.Walsh

 

[ArmedBear]

If the spent hull flies out, it's an ejector. Ejector shotguns also have extractors: when you just unload that .410 without firing, it will lift the shell up a little bit so you can get it out easily, when you open the gun. The ejector will only operate after you pull the trigger.

Some guns ONLY have extractors, which means that, after you shoot your two rounds, you have to fish the hulls out by hand before you can reload. No way, no how would I want that in a defensive gun.

I have an old single-shot and SxS that I occasionally hunt with, with extractors. Extractors have advantages if you want to retrieve your hulls easily, but reloading quickly involves fumbling. Note that SASS regulations require extractors only, so most CAS-oriented coach guns do not have ejectors.

Automatic selective ejectors (the only kind I know of in a modern double gun) go one further: they "know" if a barrel has been fired. If you fire one barrel and open the gun, the spent hull will fly out and the other one will stay in the gun. That is what you would want for HD, in a double gun, since you'd want to keep it loaded with two without fumbling, and without having to figure out which barrel had fired, under stress.

The Cynergy has automatic selective ejectors.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

I feel so enlightened!! Thanks alot for that!!

So, is a O/U just as reliable as a single trigger SxS?

Are there any O/U's with double triggers?

If I buy a double, right now, it'll have to be a Stoeger!! Yea, I know, I know.

Thank you so much,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Two Cold Soakers]

Configuration has little to do with it. Build quality is a surer measure of reliability, and like ArmedBear says, Build quality goes up with price.

FWIW, many competition OU guns (single trigger, as a rule) come with a replaceable trigger group. That'll keep you shooting.
Or does that indicate the configuration is prone to failure?

Build quality, tolerances, and materials (all $$$ issues) determine reliability more than configuration.

 

[ArmedBear]

FWIW, many competition OU guns (single trigger, as a rule) come with a replaceable trigger group. That'll keep you shooting.
Or does that indicate the configuration is prone to failure?

The reason for that is that Olympic (and other) competition rules require the use of a single gun for the competition -- no spare guns allowed. Trigger-plate competition guns have essentially everything on that removable group, so that, when you fly to Slovenia for an international competition, you can fix your gun if you need to and a gunsmith can work on the gun's mechanism while you shoot with the spare one. Typically, those guns are not failure-prone. The stakes are just really high.

An 870 has a similar design, actually, and it's not known for frequent breakdowns, either.

 

[ArmedBear]

WRT the Stoegers...

They are rough inside, but IMO they are quite solid. With some upgrading and gunsmithing, they are used for CAS, where they are beaten to hell regularly.

However, AFAIK they have extractors only (note that they're all SASS-approved), and they have inertia triggers. That means that the gun switches barrels when recoil makes a weight in the mechanism move. If you have a misfire, or fire on an empty chamber or spent round, you don't get a second shot just by pulling again.

 

[Balog]

Is the suggestion actually being offered that one must spend =>$2000 for a reliable SxS with ejectors?

 

[ArmedBear]

Is the suggestion actually being offered that one must spend =>$2000 for a reliable SxS with ejectors?

In order to get a gun that is objectively as trustworthy as your average name-brand pump gun, yes.

Why else do you think there are no longer any American-made SxS working guns, and haven't been for a very long time, whereas damn near every duck blind, cop car and farmhouse has at least one 870, 500, or similar? American SxS guns used to be extremely common and popular. These pumps wiped them right off the map by offering excellent reliability and durability, at what amounts to a very low price.

(Yes, you can still get an American-made 12 Gauge SxS NIB, but it starts just under $4000: https://www.csmcspecials.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=63 )

 

[P.B.Walsh]

they are used for CAS

What does "CAS" stand for?

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Loyalist Dave]

C owboy A ction S hooting.

I agree with ArmedBear. HD is the job of a pump gun or an auto-loader. To modify a phrase, no way no how would I use an expensive O/U or SxS for home defense (we established cheaper ones aren't good for that) when the weapon will be impounded following an HD incident until the investigation is completed. That could take months, and there is little chance the local evidence storage facility wont rust the heck out of my expensive gun. My Remington 870 for HD; My lovely O/U or SxS for upland shooting or a nice day at the range.

LD

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Yea, I guess your right.

Something just appeals to me about them doubles.....

 

[huntsman]

I know that the SxS with double triggers and exposed hammers probally takes the cake

Only if it has separate locks.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

I didn't know it could have only one lock.

 

[huntsman]

I didn't know it could have only one lock.

Not one lock but a true side lock.

Does anyone make a SxS with double triggers and exposed hammers for around $600?

The exposed hammers in this level of gun isn't a big deal (I'd rather have it with internal)

Really the whole advantage of a double in a SD situation is not that it's more reliable but that it doesn't require the fine motor skills to fire a second shot as opposed to a pump gun.

The semi-auto also requires less “action" to fire another shot and it would be my preferred choice in a strictly SD gun.

the Tac guys on TV are always preaching about how under a stressful situation people's skill level breaks down (without extensive training).

I've seen this first hand grouse hunting and I believe it to be a factor in choosing a gun among the dedicated grouse hunters, you'll find the majority carry doubles with some using semi-autos but only the noobies or a part timer will use a pump.

 

[Balog]

agree with ArmedBear. HD is the job of a pump gun or an auto-loader. To modify a phrase, no way no how would I use an expensive O/U or SxS for home defense (we established cheaper ones aren't good for that) when the weapon will be impounded following an HD incident until the investigation is completed.

Perhaps in your own mind you've established this, but last I checked saying something is a fact doesn't make it so...

Why else do you think there are no longer any American-made SxS working guns, and haven't been for a very long time, whereas damn near every duck blind, cop car and farmhouse has at least one 870, 500, or similar?

Why do almost no cops carry revolvers anymore? I guess they just aren't as reliable as slide guns, no other possible explanation...

 

[ArmedBear]

Balog, neither of your statements makes any sense as a response to the quote before it. Competitive skeet shooters don't trust cheap double guns because their score might suffer and they won't get a little blue bit of ribbon that weekend. If you want to trust your life with something that's judged to be inadequate for skeet by every competent shooter in the world, go for it. Revolvers have nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of producing a good double gun, and if you know anything about them, you know that.

Back to the original subject, huntsman, I find that the skills involved in operating a double-trigger gun are also subject to breakdown under stress. So is operation of the crossbolt safety.

The only thing that seems to work for me 100% instinctively under stress is operating a single-trigger two-barrel gun with a tang safety. I've screwed up with a semiauto's crossbolt safety, a pump's slide, and a SxS's two triggers.

There's the Catch-22: the simplest guns in construction require the operator not to screw up, and the simplest guns to operate require the gun to be very well built to be reliable.

 

[huntsman]

The only thing that seems to work for me 100% instinctively under stress is operating a single-trigger two-barrel gun with a tang safety. I've screwed up with a semiauto's crossbolt safety, a pump's slide, and a SxS's two triggers.

agreed

There's the Catch-22: the simplest guns in construction require the operator not to screw up, and the simplest guns to operate require the gun to be very well built to be reliable.

It all comes down to the cash. If you only have a few hundred buy a pump if you got $500. Buy a semi-auto more than that you can get a decent double.

 

[armchairQB]

2 triggers, 2 barrels, essentially 2 guns in one.

I dont get a switching system in a double trigger set up ArmedBear mentions in post #2.

You switch by switching triggers there is no mechanical or inertia barrel switching system in a double trigger gun.

Just asking for clarification on this.

 

[ArmedBear]

You switch by switching triggers there is no mechanical or inertia barrel switching system in a double trigger gun.

You're quite right. Typo fixed. Thank you, and I hope that didn't confuse anyone.

I meant "inertia-switched SINGLE trigger".

 

[win71]

Repetition

Is the suggestion actually being offered that one must spend =>$2000 for a reliable SxS with ejectors?

Actually that is probably on the low side.

As for getting screwed up during the sometimes instant use of a gun I think it depends more on what your physical and mental self gets used to the most.

I hunt a lot over a pointer and sometimes things happen real fast. I use both a double trigger 20ga. SxS side lock and a single trigger o/u 28 ga. I'm not saying I alternate guns. I usually stay with the one I start the season with but I will bounce around some. It doesn't matter which one I start with if I change guns I'll screw it up the first time I need that second shot.

As far as target work is concerned there is no way I would fool around with double triggers.

And as someone else stated, I believe the reliability factor depends more on gun quality, not the number of triggers or the type of action. especially in double guns. Quality equates to cost.

I sure do like my hand detachable side lock though.

 

[Two Cold Soakers]

I have shot clay targets with double triggers and has SOME MINOR success (plywood, cheap tin and 20 dollar bills).

Like anything, when it's "happening", it's a zen-like experience, all pistons firing on time, grinning ear-to ear, usually after much practice and many failures.

I'd not trust that "happening" state to prevail in a defensive situation.

 

[Balog]

Balog, neither of your statements makes any sense as a response to the quote before it. Competitive skeet shooters don't trust cheap double guns because their score might suffer and they won't get a little blue bit of ribbon that weekend. If you want to trust your life with something that's judged to be inadequate for skeet by every competent shooter in the world, go for it. Revolvers have nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of producing a good double gun, and if you know anything about them, you know that.

You still keep stating your opinion like it's gospel, I still keep not seeing any facts presented to back it up.

Pumps etc offer advantages (mainly capacity) that make them more generally popular. That does not mean SxS's are less reliable.

Professional athletes use the best ie most expensive equipment possible. That does not make less expensive alternatives unreliable.

There are a great many well regarded Spanish SxS's available used for =< $1000. Are you really saying none of them are reliable? More importantly, do you have any relevant evidence for that claim?

 

[oneounceload]

There are a great many well regarded Spanish SxS's available used for =< $1000. Are you really saying none of them are reliable? More importantly, do you have any relevant evidence for that claim?

There are some older AyA's, Uggies, Zabalas, etc. available, but not all Spanish guns, ESPECIALLY the older ones from the 50's and 60's are good ones. The Spanish had their "bad period" of soft metal, shoddy workmanship, etc. - just like the Belgians did.

If you want a new Spanish gun, an Uggie can be had for about $1,500-$2,000, while an AyA, Arrietta, Grulla, and Arrizabalaga will tend to START at $4,000 an go upwards to adding another zero to that amount. They CAN be ordered as you want them, as can many Italian guns and a few from CSMC - for a price