OAL inconsistent on LC Turret

[Oldgoat03]

I'm fairly new to reloading and started with 45ACP on my Lee Classic Turret. I use Lee Deluxe 4 carbide die sets. I am running the seating and crimp die seperately.

Beacuse I'm new at this I don't get in a hurry and I measure nearly every load (& carefully eyeball all) to be safe. Checking results also helps me learn how my press and lever mechanics are working. My target OAL is 1.25" and I'm able to dial that in easily. My issue is I can't seem to get consistent OAL when loading rounds and it really bugs me. We aren't talking huge variances (1.24"- 1.256") and all of them will load and seat properly in my 1911. I am running pretty light loads 5.0 gr W231, am getting good neck tension and have been pulling and reseating anything less than 1.245" OAL. (not convinved this is even necessary - just being anal)

Components:
Berry's plated 200 gr SWC
Mixed range brass
CCI LP
W231 5.0gr

Observations:
The turret has some play in it and lifts slightly at the top of the stroke when the case contacts the dies. I have seen this condition noted elsewhere and have tried to be consistent in my lever pull mechanics etc to mitigate variances.

I have also noticed that mixed brass has differnet wall thickness, weight (significant weight differences) and probably case length too (haven't meaured that but probably should).

My guess is that the OAL variances I'm getting are from turret play and using mixed brass.

That said my real questions are why do you think this is happening and is this amount of variance anything I should worry about? (or am I just being too picky) :banghead:

I have read and learned a lot from you here at THR and really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bob

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's not the press but the mixed brass.

 

[provoartkaa]

Your hair is .003 thick. If you can live with 3 hairs go for it.

 

[rcmodel]

Sort some brass by headstamp and try it.

I sort everything I load.
It can stop a lot of problems before you know you have problems.

rc

 

[CatManDo]

RC is correct, sort by headstamp. And, if you are real anal, sort like headstamps by weight, then do case neck measurements. I never get that far.

 

[Oldgoat03]

Thanks RC. After posting I had come to the same conclusion and will try sorting and then check the results.

I'm guessing that'll git er dun.

By the way my hair (few as they are) is much thicker than that.

Thanks again
Bob

 

[snuffy]

My guess is that the OAL variances I'm getting are from turret play and using mixed brass.

Turret play has nothing to do with it. It moves the same each time, as long as you're going all-the-way-to-the-top with the ram, it will seat the to the same depth. Your problem is two things. Mixed brass, and you're probably measuring the OAL from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case head. The bullet nose is not very precise, so your OAL isn't either.

That said my real questions are why do you think this is happening and is this amount of variance anything I should worry about? (or am I just being too picky) Yes you're being too picky.

The OAL you're getting is in a normal range for 45 auto. As long as the shells feed and chamber in your pistol, you should get good performance.

 

[rcmodel]

(1.24"- 1.256")

.016" variation is certainly way more then I would be satisfied with.

rc

 

[snuffy]

Quote:
(1.24"- 1.256")
.016" variation is certainly way more then I would be satisfied with.

rc

EEK. Well I should read better, or at least wait until AFTER I finish my morning coffee!

Yeah, that's unacceptable. Differences in case hardness/thickness results in more or less spring back while seating. But that much is remarkable.

 

[elwoodm]

its hard to get the same loading depth with plated bullets. i use 230gr plated and the shape of the nose is hardly the same on any of them. i just pick a happy medium out of 10 rounds measured. want good coal pick well made bullets i use the lee turret high dollar bullets load well.

 

[1KPerDay]

Meh... Shoot em, sez I.

 

[kingmt]

.015" concerns you? I'd never even check it.

 

[jacksgd]

One option is to send a sample bullet to Lee and have them make a seating plug for that particular SWC bullet. Although there is a fee it is very minimal.

That should reduce your variances in COL but it certainly won't eleminate it. There is to much of a difference in all the bullets to do that.

 

[oldreloader]

I use two types of seater plugs, flat end for flat point bullets and another for round profiles.

 

[1SOW]

Two things may contribute to you're oal variances.
1, The handle "pull" needs to really be consistent with the LEE Turret (and most presses).
2. The auto indexing rod can be adjusted to remove "some" of the play
Unscrew the self-locking nut at the top of the rod (use the 1/4" wrench on the rod ) until the bottom of the rod is moved 'down' and contacting the base of the press enough to flex the turret "up" slightly. Then make minor adjustments to get the dies back in indexed sequence with the rod still touching at the bottom..
This rod contacting the base will prevent some movement of the turret.
It's "normal" for the turret to flex 'up' some when your seating a bullet. The seating adjuster makes allowance for that , but the "PULL" has to be at the same speed and force to get better/best oal consistency.

Different brass hardnesses and lengths "shouldn't" affect oal, but it DOES; because it takes "less force" to seat in a short/softer case and more to seat in a long/harder case.
I sort by headstamp, but don't worry about case length. For me, having all the cases at the same hardness helps oal consistency. JMO

Your variance is larger than mine (usually +/- .003" max. with a bullet that fits the seater well), but shouldn't be a problem unless you're at min or max load.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Faret]

Before loading the bullets check the oal of just the bullets and see how much difference there is.

 

[Oldgoat03]

Update: OAL results after sorting cases

I sorted the previously mixed brass and ran batches of Speer and Hornday. After minor adjustment both came in consistently 1.250-1.251. Still using Berry's 200SWC plated bullets and W231, I ran a few RP cases and the spread was only slightly larger 1.25-1.253. I am still loading low-mid range powder charges so should be safe.

It'll be interesting to see how the Winchester, PMC and other brass works in batches.

Thanks again for all your help
Bob

 

[elwoodm]

you only need to worry with 45 acp when you load full power loads. big changes in oal can change fps quite a bit. keeping good habits and staying with them means you can spot problems much easier. lee turrets have a bit of play in them but not enough to keep you from adj it o out.and dont forget to trim that brass when its time to.

 

[Duckdog]

Are you using a comparatator or just measuring to the nose? The noses on bullets are rarely the same unless you cast flat nose bullets. There is nothing wrong, most likely. The curve of the bullet is what the seating stem uses and has nothing to do with the point in most instances. If it does touch the inconsistant point on the bullets, the variances get worse.

 

[1SOW]

OldGoat, In 9mm I've found there are basically "two" primary hardnesses of brass that can sorted to make the press work better.

The ATK brass is much softer and includes brass like Speer, F.C., CCI, Blazer and a couple more. The WIN, R&P and PPU brass are harder and will load consistently when mixed together.

If I load 20 WIN cases and accidentally have an F.C. mixed in, it will 100% of the time have an OAL at least .005" shorter than the average WIN case. When the ATK/softer cases are all loaded "together", no problem. There may be differences with the 45 brass.

 

[4895]

What is the average discrepancy OAL on factory ammo? Been so long since I have bought any. Come to think about it, I don't think I could afford any factory ammo.

Call me crazy, but my target ammo is usually no more than .002" off. I would guess that .015" is okay, just not my cup of tea. Sometimes I work for 2 hours just to get 50 rounds the same. I am probably wasting my time, but its better than watching the grass get taller.

 

[Oldgoat03]

4895
My last run had variances of .001-.003. Things according to your rule of thumb should be pretty good now.

"my target ammo is usually no more than .002" off. I would guess that .015" is okay, just not my cup of tea"

I also intend to look at the ATK sorting that 1SOW mentioned above and see if the same holds true for 45ACP.

Thanks again
Bob

 

[gamestalker]

Brass thickness or brass length or any other particulars of the brass will not effect the OAL at all.

What your probably experiencing is press flex.

 

[1SOW]

Brass thickness or brass length or any other particulars of the brass will not effect the OAL at all.

What your probably experiencing is press flex

.

That and handle pull differences DO affect the oal as the OP has already noted. Sorting brass does make a very noticeable difference, even though it isn't critical.

In a perfect world, the seating anvil and the shell holder are adjusted to an exact distance apart, so the brass length/thickness and bullet length don't matter. The distance is "fixed". Only it doesn't work that-away. The press flex and handle pull force by the operator also changes.

 

[unknwn]

I found that my Classic turret would output more consistant OAL if I stroked the press arm full length to seat, and then lift the arm just enough that I don't set the turret to twisting and stroke it a second time.
That was when I seat/crimp in the same process.
If I have it set up to seat and crimp in separate processes, I stroke to seat, then I stroke to crimp, followed by the previously described short stroke to the crimping station again. This equates to let's say, an eighth to a quarter of the lever travel.
If a person is willing to add just a little bit more to thier routine, reaching up and twisting the round a quarter of a turn before that short stroke MIGHT add some additional measure of consistency to the final product.
When I instituted this into my routine I found ALL my auto pistol rounds measured out to within .002-.003" of each other & my standard (and many times exactly the same as that standard) when randomly chosen examples were checked.
I am willing to call that satisfactory rather then chasing the positively exact OAL that seems to be so unnecessary.
I would really all have to do with how "anal" you want to get about your end product.