Observed some burglars in the dark

[Marlin60Man]

Hot last night, so I went out on the side porch to sit out in the fresh air. All I had on was my shorts and being modest I turned my porch light off so no one could see me. Didn't expect anyone to be out though since it was already 10:30

As soon as I open the door and sit down, I notice a couple of guys hanging around my neighbor's mail box, one was on a bicycle and the other on foot, both looking at their phones and talking low to each other.

A car came up the street toward them, and they all the sudden split up. Thought that wasn't so strange, but they only moved a house or so up the block and were hanging around a stop sign.

About this time I go in and mention it to my brother, feeling that maybe I'm a little paranoid, so he goes out to get a look for himself and says they're gone. Well, I go back out right afterward and stand in the tree's shadow so I can't be seen and wait, and after a couple cars that were parked take off, the guy on foot comes out from someone's yard.

I kept watching them a little like this, always keeping where they couldn't see me in the dark, but I could see them in all the ambient light. Every once in a while guy guy on foot would walk by and sometimes the guy on the bike would ride up beside him and show him his phone or vise versa. I could tell that one of them was carrying something at this point so started getting a little worried but my brother didn't want me to call the cops yet, even though at this point an hour had gone by and we had seen them walking around in a few people's yards.

So a few minutes go by, and one of these guys comes strolling across my front lawn, between two cars parked out front, and across my driveway to my neighbor's yard where his sensor-activated light was already on.

This guy walks up maybe 6 feet from my neighbor's carport just giving a good glance inside, and probably no more than 15 feet from me. I see in his hand some kind of bright yellow handle that I know is for some kind of tool or instrument, I think it was an axe, and my brother says he saw a drill in his other hand.

I don't know if this guy saw us standing there watching him or not. I stared right at him the whole time and never saw him look in our direction, but instead of going into the carport he just took off back onto the street.

Brother finally agreed it was time to call the cops at that point, they sent a patrol out and all was quiet. Still this irritates me because our garage was just broken into and it wouldn't surprise me if these were the culprits.

Wish I had a handgun, all I had on me was one of those kimber pepperblasters and my little knife, and curiously I just grabbed those out of habit. Once the guy had come up to spitting distance of us with an axe though, I felt the need to go load my rifle and have it at the ready. Brother really didn't like that... Thought it was kind of funny when he asked, "You're loading it?" as if it was do me any good unloaded.

I think the patrols they sent out scared the guys off... That or maybe the guy had seen me there.

 

[Sky]

Kinda amazing what one see after bed time, no?

 

[bikerdoc]

Just my .02 fwiw.

Report all suspicious activity in detail at once
Dont leave the house/porch
dont confront
Know your state and local laws
not every situation defaults to gun

 

[MedWheeler]

so started getting a little worried but my brother didn't want me to call the cops yet, even though at this point an hour had gone by and we had seen them walking around in a few people's yards.

Brother really didn't like that... Thought it was kind of funny when he asked, "You're loading it?" as if it was do me any good unloaded.

What is the relationship between you and your brother that requires you get his approval before calling the police? I'm guessing you live in his house, and go by his rules accordingly?
Yes, I doubt that the subjects actually arrived in the area already carrying an axe and a drill. Definitely doing some "after-hours shopping."
In all likelihood, calling police is all I would have done, but I would have done it a lot sooner than an hour after first observation.

 

[JAshley73]

Based on what you've shared with us, I think you waited an hour too long to call the police. Had they been engaged in any criminal activity, how many of your neighbors did you allow them to take advantage of? And what would you have done if they had altered their course and come your way? Too late to call the police (and have them arrive in time) then...

If you see suspicious activity, call the police. If it is a false alarm, then no harm done. If something bad is going on, then they will be on their way much sooner, and much less bad will happen. Once the police show up, chances are that the bad guys will first run, and/possibly be caught. Either is a win for you and your neighborhood.

And I really hope that by your comment, "I really wish I had a pistol" you didn't intend to use it a a scare tool. The only time you use a gun for your defense is when there is no other means of escape, and the only way to stop the imminent and severe threat of your life is to shoot. In the situation you've posted above, you have countless opportunities to escape and avoid danger. I trust that by your comment, you now want a pistol as a last line of defense, and for that reason only, right?

Short answer is, call the police at the first sign of suspicious activity...

 

[Thresh]

Wish I had a handgun

Why? How would you have acted differently?

I'm going to assume the reason is for self defense in case of a violent confrontation. To me, it seems like there are two ways such an encounter could develop: they spot you while you're watching them from "15 feet away" and don't appreciate it, or you make your presence known to prevent a burglary.

I think we can all agree that the latter is a very poor choice for many reasons. In the case of the former, having a gun would not prevent a violent encounter, and indeed, could make it much worse.

The scenario described bears quite a few tactical similarities to a certain recent case in the news which has been widely discussed. You observed persons in your neighborhood who, while not engaging in any criminal acts, were acting suspiciously.* Recent thefts had occurred in your neighborhood. You decided to follow and observe these persons, operating under the assumption that they were criminals.

I have no interest in discussing the differences between what happened here and the aforementioned case, and certainly not that case itself; I bring it up in order to make the point that this situation could have easily gone as badly or worse than that one. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Really, I don't think good tactical choices were made here.

Why go out and follow two men who could not unreasonably be perceived as being up to no good, instead of watching from a safe distance? Certainly, being a good witness is important should anything go south, but in a number of ways, a cheap pair of binoculars is a much safer alternative to skulking about in the bushes. Consider also that being a good witness requires that you be physically able to relate what you saw to the authorities.

Why bring weapons when going out after them? Feeling that a specific scenario requires carrying a weapon, firearm or otherwise, is a strong indicator that you'd be better off not being a part of it, if at all possible.

Why not immediately call the police? I understand your brother didn't want you to do so, but at that point - an hour had gone by, and these guys were still hanging around and possibly casing houses - it's perfectly reasonable to ring up those responsible for checking these things out, and a lot safer than doing so yourself. Additionally, it seems your brother eventually came around and recognized that was the correct decision, as the police were called.

After seeing that these two were carrying items which looked like they would be lethal weapons at melee range, you went back inside, called the police, and loaded your rifle. Doing the first two was a good decision - removing yourself from a potential confrontation and contacting the police is a smart move. I'd suggest that for a home defense weapon, it should be kept loaded, but maybe that's not possible or prudent (i.e., your brother kicks you out if you leave your firearms loaded, or there are children in the house, etc.) - we don't know, though perhaps getting a safe could resolve any issues there. Given how the situation played out, though, staying inside, watching their activities without calling attention to yourself, calling the police, and loading the rifle (for self defense in the case of a violent home invasion, and only for that case) would have been a wiser play.

* Aside: Regarding the obvious rebuttal of "trespassing", I'm not familiar with the applicable local or state laws, but I'm assuming three things:
1) Neither you nor your neighbor have posted your property with signs to the effect of "private property / keep out / no trespassing", and similarly, neither of you told the men to leave.
2) Without such instruction (a sign or a directive from the property owner), walking across someone's lawn does not constitute trespassing.
3) Taken on their own, neither loitering nor trespassing are criminal offenses - I'm assuming they are ordinance violations at most.

 

[Jeff22]

Speaking a cop, the sooner you can call in with some specific information the better.

I do realize that sometimes people observe some behavior by others that seems a little unusual but does not pass the threshold to "suspicious" for a time, or that you don't realize what you observed was suspicious until you think about it for a while.

But the sooner you can call the better.

If you live someplace where there is a high level of activity, you may not see a patrol car in a timely manner. And unfortunately some under motivated cops often times tend not to take such calls seriously.

Those of us who have solved burglaries or thefts from auto or vandalism incidents because somebody saw something and made a phone call appreciate when a citizen calls something in. Often times it's nothing, but sometimes it turns out to be significant.

 

[Marlin60Man]

Well, I didn't really want to write a novel and bore you guys so I left out a few details... So...

1. Didn't really leave my side porch/drive-way. The drive is literally right beside the porch, and then on that corner is a tree/bush.

2. Never followed anyone, was just already standing in the drive-way when the guy crossed my lawn and drive-way and into my neighbors yard. Kind of froze and didn't want to move 'cause he'd see me.

3. My brother doesn't even pay rent haha. My mother and I do and it's just that they're not really gun or cop friendly and they didn't want me to call the cops I guess because they didn't want to fill out reports or whatever. It's complicated...

4. I suppose instead of saying I wish I had a handgun, I should say I wish I didn't only have a rifle (that takes too long to load) my family wants me to keep unloaded and put away and pepper spray. The guy was so close and I didn't know if it was an axe or what, so I didn't even want to move to let him know I was there and spark a confrontation, I just thought, "Wow, if he would have charged, I don't think my pepper spray would have done much, and what if he would have followed me into the house."

5. After calling the cops I went back inside, loaded the gun and left it on the washer-dryer just outside the backdoor and stayed there keeping an eye on the garage and stuff. Couldn't watch through the windows because we still haven't taken the plastic off, and at that point the rifle was just there to make me feel better in case this guy walking around with tools gets grumpy or does see me or something--maybe hides from the patrol, remembers me keeping an eye on him, gets mad, who knows.


I really didn't like that it took so long to convince my brother to let me call the cops either. I wanted to call them pretty much the first time I saw any of it but thought I was maybe being paranoid. Didn't even think that the drill and axe were probably already robbed from a neighbor, that sucks!

Anyway, sometimes I have a problem with knowing whether I'm being unreasonable or not. I wanted to call pretty much as soon as I saw them sticking around, but everyone just insisted I not and that I was over-reacting and it was two on one. I guess I got my "Told you so!" moment in though.

 

[T Bran]

You would be amused at how fast my camera flash gets them moving I keep my camera handy and take photos of folks lurking and their plates. Day or nite it really freaks them out. I am armed but have never needed it. Around here it is mostly folks trying to steal fruit from my trees or my neighbors field. Sad part is if they would just ask I'd give them more than they could steal.
T

 

[tomrkba]

Purchase a flashlight that puts out at least 100 lumens.

Next, purchase a handgun. What if they had picked your house and you were upstairs sleeping?

Buy a magazine fed rifle or a Garand. You can load either very quickly.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I had a very similar experience. I was standing out in front of my house waiting for my girlfriend to arrive as it was dark out. As I am standing there, two young men run up from around the corner and start looking through the windows trying to see inside of my home.....as I am standing no more than 15' away from them.

I would have felt much more comfortable in the situation if I had a handgun, but, I didn't. I simply said, "Can I help you?" and the one closest to me nearly jumped out of his shoes. They bolted and a car came swerving into our cul-de-sac and peeled out making a U-turn. I called the police, but I never heard if they found the two men or the car that I suspect was a getaway car.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Call the police immediately. I understand possibly feel "well it may be nothing, I don't want to burden them, what if it's a false alarm, it could pull them from other calls, etc..." Not saying you were thinking that, but I think a lot of people hesitate to call 911 for those same reasons.

Do it anyways. Get the info out there. The dispatcher will put it in the system, a patrol SGT will probably be the one to make the call about whether to send a car over. It's not on you. Get the info out. You never know. Maybe there was another similar call 10 minutes ago that they thought was nothing, but now with your similar call, it's enough to make them send a car. Maybe some break ins do occur and even though they couldn't be stopped, your info gives the police things like where suspect might have been at what time. They can plot this on a map with other incidents and maybe predict where they will hit next.

Get the info out there. You have suspicions. Get the information to the people who's job it is to make the decisions about what to do about it. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's the real deal. Let the cops decide what to do, and arm them with enough info to do it. We're all in this fight against bad guys together. Cops need citizens to make calls and report things. There's no such thing as "too much information" when it comes to fighting crime.

Also, carry a gun. I know it was late at night and you were home. But crime is not a "somewhere else" thing. Crime can happen at Wal Mart and in a parking lot, but it can happen on your front porch too. There's really no reason not to have a gun within arms reach, even when you're at home. The same goes with having a cell phone. Being home is not a reason to let your guard down and leave the right tools elsewhere.

And I really hope that by your comment, "I really wish I had a pistol" you didn't intend to use it a a scare tool. The only time you use a gun for your defense is when there is no other means of escape, and the only way to stop the imminent and severe threat of your life is to shoot. In the situation you've posted above, you have countless opportunities to escape and avoid danger. I trust that by your comment, you now want a pistol as a last line of defense, and for that reason only, right?

I think that's patronizing and a little uncalled for. The OP had the mind to come on here and tell us his story in hopes that he could learn something and that we can learn something from him. Questioning is reasoning for wanting a gun on him is out of line IMO. He's not a 14 year old kid. He doesn't need a condescending lecture about why and why not he should carry.


Thanks for sharing Marlin60Man. It just goes to show the important of preparedness and the right mindset. Here's the thing: that stuff was going to happen whether you were on your porch or not. You just happen to know about it now. That goes for all of us. It's 4:20 AM right now as I type this where I am. I'm inside my apartment right now, lights on, listening to the Rush 24/7 Podcast and feeling great. But who knows what's going on in my parking lot. Or in the building next to mine, or anywhere else for that matter. Are my doors all locked? Is my Jeep locked up? Did I pull the tarp cover over all my gear in the back of my Jeep? Do I have a gun and a charged cell phone within reach of me right now? All these questions and many more need to be asked by all of us. There's crime happening out there right now. Some of it's on your front lawn, like Marlin60Man showed us. How many thugs with axe handles have walked by all of our cars at night while we were asleep, never having known it happened? Have you done everything you could to get ready for it?

Wish I had a handgun

There's nothing wrong with thinking that. I'm glad nothing ended up happening. You've now decided you need a handgun and it didn't take something bad actually happening to you to make you think it. Sure it's better to just be prepared beforehand, but I know A LOT of my preparedness activities stem from "close calls". Cell phone dying, so I keep an extra battery. I didn't need it to call 911, but what if I would have? Getting a flat tire, so adding some Fix-A-Flat in addition to the spare tire. I didn't pop 2 tires, but what if I would have? Incidents where something bad did happen...but not as bad as it could have been. And it opened my eyes to further things I could do so that if something happens again, I can tackle it head on with back up plans stacked on back up plans. It sounds like the same happened to you. You lived, you learned, and next time you're on the porch, I hope you'll be a little more prepared. And now all of us who read your story can sit on our porches more prepared too; learning from your situation instead of having to suffer ourselves. That's a good thing.

 

[Shoobee]

This sounds like it was just neighborhood kids to me.

10:30 pm is way to early in the night for serious thieves to be about.

And from their behavior they sounded pretty disorganized.

Good thing you did not make a mistake of Zimmerman proportions.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Neighborhood kids can't steal an iPod from an unlocked car at 10:30 if the opportunity presents itself? Crime can happen anywhere, anytime, and by anyone.

 

[bbuddtec]

LOL yeah, I had a radio taken out of my car by pros between lunch break and 4pm, I guess they didn't know the "until the wee hours" rule...

 

[Marlin60Man]

Heh, no, these were all grown adults. I've seen kids riding around on their bikes on a hot summer night before. This was a different thing. I didn't really know what was going on at first, I just thought it was weird they were lingering around, splitting up when cars drove by, and then as I saw them start going in and out of people's yards it became clear. The man that came through my yard and I saw looking in my neighbor's carport was a full grown man for sure, 180-200 pounds, bald, and a goatee. I gave a good description of this guy, and I'm telling you I was so close I could see his eyes darting around looking for anything interesting in the carport. I'm pretty sure he never even saw me there, but it was just a spooky situation but I knew from watching these guys for so long already that they couldn't see me at all, so I felt the safest thing to do was just to sit and wait for him to move on. One of those situations where seconds feel like minutes though.

I simply wanted to convey that I felt underarmed and that I didn't really think it was that great that all I could have on me for a moment like that was pepper spray. I suppose that realistically speaking, I should have thought a little bit more in terms of self-defense than watching my garage, but I didn't really consider them to be that threatening at first--more along the lines of, "Oh, I better watch my stuff to make sure these shady looking guys don't break in." Didn't really hit me how serious of a situation it could have really been until the guy was danger-close with a formidable weapon.

I mean, hindsight, I probably would have been just fine walking off up my steps and into my house and the guy probably wouldn't have noticed, but I was standing there pretty much fixated on what it was he had. I'm not sure it was an axe, I saw a metallic looking attachment on the end, but the handle was one of those cylindrical safety-yellow types, maybe a shovel, but about 3' long and heavy-duty looking. Whatever it was, I knew I didn't want to start sounding off, "Hey, you!" or anything like that to startle the guy and have him charge me or something and that's pretty much all that was on my mind.

Meanwhile after he walked off and I called the cops, I started having the questioning thoughts of, "Well, wait, did he actually see me? What if he's walking off to go and mention it to his friend, and what if they come back here? Did they hear me call the cops? Oh, crap, what if these guys are actually gang members and not just petty crooks? What if they're not out here stealing stuff at all?" So yeah, at that point I went and grabbed my little .22 tube loader and put a couple rounds in it and set it nearby. I think that was more or less just a moment of question, but I wasn't going to go out and sit down on my porch with it as a show of force or anything like that. Just got thinking, "Okay, well, if they come through the door or up the porch with an axe, what am I going to do..." My brother actually thought, "Well, I have my sword if they come in here," but we're talking about one of those shop-at-home wall-hangers there... So really I think I was actually being more level-headed between the two of us there.

Thanks Ragnar, I definitely agree I should have called quicker no matter if my brother and mother disliked it. They have no good reason for not wanting to call the cops other than uncertainty and doubt I guess... It was rather irritating trying to convince them and just being told I was over-reacting or making something out of nothing. In any case my brother was right there beside me when the guy was that close, and it didn't take him much convincing after that.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Might I ask, do you have any firearms besides the .22lr rifle?

 

[Marlin60Man]

Nope, I've been wanting to get a handgun eventually, but what with the cost of guns now plus my families uneasiness around them, it's just never panned out since I mostly just have the .22lrs to go plinking and can do that all I want.

 

[Shoobee]

Ok then it sounds like the local squad of bicycle bandits did pay your neighborhood a visit. Many of these guys are x-con's trying to scrape a living off the land by scavenging.

I think I would be out sitting on your porch with a 9mm (at least) or 45ACP in a holster on, and with my binos I would be checking them out.

I would not call it in to the LEOs however until I saw them actually doing something illegal, like walking up onto private property, or slipping a slimjim into a locked car, or breaking a window. Although you are right, by then, they would be gone before the LEOs could arrive.

Carports and parking on the street do not protect your vehicle much if at all.

I sure would not try to take them down alone with a citizen's arrest though, if they did commit a crime. You would really first need to be a trained wrestler, like most LEOs are. You can't just shoot somebody for being a thief. It's not politically correct.

Your cell phone is still your best bet, if they come back.

Hindsight is a good way to learn, in preparation for the next time it happens. That's the error element in the trial and error method, which is actually how most people learn everything. Ergo Experience is a cruel mistress because she gives the test before she teaches the lesson.

 

[bobby68]

Hot last night, so I went out on the side porch to sit out in the fresh air. All I had on was my shorts and being modest I turned my porch light off so no one could see me. Didn't expect anyone to be out though since it was already 10:30

As soon as ...

Brother finally agreed it was time to call the cops at that point, they sent a patrol out and all was quiet. Still this irritates me because our garage was just broken into and it wouldn't surprise me if these were the culprits.

Wish I had a handgun, all I had on me was one of those kimber pepperblasters and my little knife, and curiously I just grabbed those out of habit. Once the guy had come up to spitting distance of us with an axe though, I felt the need to go load my rifle and have it at the ready. Brother really didn't like that... Thought it was kind of funny when he asked, "You're loading it?" as if it was do me any good unloaded.

I think the patrols they sent out scared the guys off... That or maybe the guy had seen me there.

Maybe the guys were hiding as patrols went by. I was once awakened about 4-5am by two teenage girls haggling with third over a boy on speaker phone... Outside in the street.

The police drove by looking for them, the girls simply ducked behind a low fence next to apts. another neighbor, also awakened trying to figure it out was able to stop th officers and set them straight. It seemed the police had searched with spotlight, not seeing anything, were preparing to leave. I've seen/heard it happen before with other noise complaints. Sometimes the police don't try too hard.

 

[bobby68]

Ok then it sounds like the local squad of bicycle bandits did pay your neighborhood a visit. Many of these guys are x-con's trying to scrape a living off the land by scavenging.

I think I would be out sitting on your porch with a 9mm (at least) or 45ACP in a holster on, and with my binos I would be checking them out.

I would not call it in to the LEOs however until I saw them actually doing something illegal, like walking up onto private property, or slipping a slimjim into a locked car, or breaking a window. Although you are right, by then, they would be gone before the LEOs could arrive.

Carports and parking on the street do not protect your vehicle much if at all.

I sure would not try to take them down alone with a citizen's arrest though, if they did commit a crime. You would really first need to be a trained wrestler, like most LEOs are. You can't just shoot somebody for being a thief. It's not politically correct.

Your cell phone is still your best bet, if they come back.

Hindsight is a good way to learn, in preparation for the next time it happens. That's the error element in the trial and error method, which is actually how most people learn everything. Ergo Experience is a cruel mistress because she gives the test before she teaches the lesson.

Video recording of them would also be helpful. It makes it harder for them to pull that, "I was only...", muddying up the situation to the police. Video taping also throws some people off, knowing there's that factor of undeniable accountability forced upon them which they are not used to encountering. There is nothing illegal with filming a crime.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Shoobee: I would not call it in to the LEOs however until I saw them actually doing something illegal, like walking up onto private property, or slipping a slimjim into a locked car, or breaking a window.

I know of no place in the country where "walking up onto private property" is illegal unless the property is properly posted.

I would call on the basis of any reasonable basis for suspicion.

Although you are right, by then, they would be gone before the LEOs could arrive.

A good reason to use a different strategy....

I sure would not try to take them down alone with a citizen's arrest though, if they did commit a crime.

Agree. Citizens' arrests involve a whole lot of risk, physical and otherwise.

You would really first need to be a trained wrestler, like most LEOs are.

And LEOs do not grapple with suspects without backup.

You can't just shoot somebody for being a thief.

You can say that again.

 

[bobby68]

Thanks Ragnar, I definitely agree I should have called quicker no matter if my brother and mother disliked it. They have no good reason for not wanting to call the cops other than uncertainty and doubt I guess... It was rather irritating trying to convince them and just being told I was over-reacting or making something out of nothing. In any case my brother was right there beside me when the guy was that close, and it didn't take him much convincing after that.

So you proved yourself right. Not much comfort if something really bad had resulted, but at least you learned, and hopefully your family did too

 

[Shoobee]

There are not enough LEOs to chase down every red herring.

Waiting until you actually see something that constitutes a crime allows you to tell the dispatcher what is "in progress" rather than what you suspect.

I have often mused with the notion of getting a 22LR with a scope, and plinking some of these late night thieves in the azz so that they limp away and leave a blood trail, allowing the LEOs to find them more easily.

That would be my alternative strategy.

For now, I will stick with waiting until I actually see a crime in progress however.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Shoobee: Waiting until you actually see something that constitutes a crime allows you to tell the dispatcher what is "in progress" rather than what you suspect.

And just what is the advantage to that, if it brings help too late?

I have often mused with the notion of getting a 22LR with a scope, and plinking some of these late night thieves in the azz so that they limp away and leave a blood trail, allowing the LEOs to find them more easily.

That would be my alternative strategy.

That would get you locked up for a long time, and should you ever actually do it, that post could seriously weaken your defense in court.

For now, I will stick with waiting until I actually see a crime in progress however.

Which means that the police will have to rely on others to help them effectively.