Of the heavier grain .357 mag defensive loads which one?

[sidheshooter]

Dang. Ancient thread.

That said, not much has changed since the days when the FBI offered the 145 silvertip as a reload by permission. For full-time bipedal predators, that, followed by the PMC starfire 150 (if it's still made), followed by the 158 Fed Hydra-shok, IMHO. Other heavy weights are too punchy. The 135 speer might be great when recoil is an issue (snubbies) but at 990 fps–or whatever it is now–I'd take the 38spec+P FBI load first over the 135 GDHP: if you're going to shoot a .38 bullet at .38 velocities, may as well have an easy ejection/reload and just skip the long cartridge. That .357 GDHP "short barrel" load reminds me of a bag of chips or box of cereal that is half full of air...

JMO

 

[DHart]

I agree that the 135 gr. .357 Gold Dot is a lighter loading, better suited to reducing recoil with snubbies.

My favorite .357 defense load is the 145 gr. Silvertip... that's a real goodie. Although I haven't looked at the very latest loadings... perhaps there's an HST that takes the prize these days? I've been solely focused on 9, 40, and 45 in recent years.

 

[sthomper]

thats what i anm trying to find out. at the hornady(?) website they claim they make 158 hp that moves at 1250 fps and has less energy than their 125g 1500fps round.

why would a heavier, slower round with less energy be chosen for penetration capabilities over the ligher, faster, higher KE round??? is their a mass / gravity relationshipo that makes heavier slower lower energy same-caliber rounds more effective at penetrating??

 

[DHart]

Generally speaking, heavier weight bullets for caliber penetrate deeper. But bullet design can have a huge influence as well.

Ignore energy and velocity statistics. Those don't tell you the "terminal ballistics", that is how the bullet itself performs when it hits the intended target (i.e. an human threat!)

The DESIGN of the bullet itself (material it is made of, the shape of the cavity, and other design elements), at the designed velocity for a given firearm, caliber, and barrel length is what determines the performance of that loading. Just comparing bullet weights, velocities, energy, etc. is relatively meaningless and cannot tell you the terminal effectiveness of one round vs. another.

Modern bullet designs have been able to provide extremely effective terminal results in calibers which with older, less well designed bullets were comparatively ineffective. This is why 9mm has finally come into it's own as an effective defense caliber. The very best and latest bullet designs have made the 9mm caliber much more capable as a defense caliber than it once was. HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger loadings are arguably the best of today's latest, available bullet designs. Not to say there aren't a few other good current-day designs as well.

Basically you want to know how deeply a bullet will penetrate a typical human adversary and to what size that bullet is expected to expand.

Deep penetration is job one - without it, expansion size is relatively worthless. But complete penetration with no expansion at all is not what you want either. The best bullets are designed to penetrate deeply and expand well, depending on the consistency and size of the intended target, without over penetration or over expansion (disintegration). Human targets and animal targets represent considerably different consistency and size, therefore defense ammunition and hunting ammunition are made with considerably different design parameters.

Once you have a bullet that can be expected to penetrate at least, let's say 16" in clothed, calibrated ballistic gel, what is it's expanded diameter and how much retained bullet weight does it have. Once you know those elements, you can more easily compare one defense loading to another.

 

[sthomper]

i know that bullet design can affect penetration. someone earlier climed that 125gr was incufficient..and that a 158 gr was preferrable even though info i have seen says they are slower and have less KE? maybe they are lying??

Ignore energy and velocity statistics. Those don't tell you the "terminal ballistics",......
what does?

dont energy and velocity affect terminal ballistics?

hornady website(?) says a 158 gr bullet moves at 1250fps and has less energy that a 125gr at 1500fps.

why would a 158 gr bullet of same caliber penetrate better (as some say) than a higher energy and faster 125gr bullet (with same design)?

 

[sixgunner455]

It's physics, and you have to consider more than the actual velocity. The KE isn't that important.

125 gr .358" hollow point bullets at a nominal 1500 fps expand. This limits penetration, just like a parachute opening slows down a parachutist, because it slows down the bullet. The hope of the designer of the HP bullet is that the opening mushroom petals will widen the wound channel, thereby increasing the amount of permanent tissue damage and increasing the effectiveness of the wound at incapacitating the target. This is true whether the bullet is designed for hunting or defense.

158-185 gr .358" hollowpoint (or solid) bullets at a nominal 1100-1250 fps may or may not expand. They odds are better for them than they are for an even slower bullet, but they are heavier for caliber, and even if they do expand, it won't be as much as the 125 gr bullets do. The extra weight increases momentum, which is a different measurement than raw KE, so they plow on through more tissue.

Personally, if I'm defending against a bear, I want my bullets heavy and penetrative. 158 gr minimum, 1100-1200 fps. If I'm defending against people, lighter will certainly work well, but I don't really think that the screaming velocities of the lighter bullets do much for me besides increase recoil and muzzle blast. I think a 140 gr or heavier hollowpoint at a reasonable velocity is much more likely to be controllable, and to penetrate as far as it needs to go. But if I'm stuck with 125 gr softpoints at 1350-1500 fps, I'll manage.

Researching hunting and aggressive predator defense has made me rethink a lot of what I thought I knew.

 

[DHart]

I'm with sixgunner... screaming velocity, light weight bullets more often than not fail to achieve the desired outcome that heavier weight, slower moving bullets do.

Velocity, bullet weight, cross section, energy, distance to target, target composition and depth, bullet composition, and bullet design ALL affect the terminal ballistics.

Generally speaking, heavier bullets <for caliber> offer better penetration and moderate recoil. I like 124gr. and 147gr. in 9mm, 180 gr. in .40, 230 gr. in .45acp., and 145 gr. in .357 magnum.

The best defense bullet designs and loadings offer deep penetration in the intended target type, good expansion in said target type, and attempt to minimize recoil and muzzle blast. So you can't determine what loads are better than others by comparing bullet weights and velocities, you've got to take all the other factors into consideration and evaluate how the various loads perform in some standardized medium, which is typically ballistic gel with several layers of denim over it.

 

[USSR]

why would a heavier, slower round with less energy be chosen for penetration capabilities over the ligher, faster, higher KE round??? is their a mass / gravity relationshipo that makes heavier slower lower energy same-caliber rounds more effective at penetrating??

SD (sectional density).

Don

 

[roaddog28]

I agree with a lot of the responses and prefer a heavier grain round over the super fast and light weight rounds. Not mentioned so far but Black Hills makes a 158 gr 357 HP which does well against two legged or four legged predators. The recoil is not bad and of course from a fixed sight 357 magnum will shoot POA. Works good in my Ruger Police Service Six 4 inch. I also like the Silvertips too. I believe in a service size revolver going lighter than a 140 gr round could be a problem in a SD situation as far as pentration.

My take.
Regards,
Howard

 

[murf]

if you want a good example of penetration, go to the public pool and watch kids jump off the high dive. a kid jumps off and lands perfectly vertical feet-first. no sound, little splash and goes to the bottom of the ten foot deep pool. gets out and trys again. this time he over rotates and does a belly flop! every head turns at the SMACK! water goes everywhere. he may go a foot under water. he's crying because he transfered all his momentum (went from 60 to zero) in one foot, not ten feet.

small diameter and long vs. large diameter and short - fmj vs. hollow point - high sd vs. low sd

murf

 

[DHart]

murf... that's a good one! I like it.

 

[murf]

had to dig deep for that one. it's been a while since i've done a belly-flop off a high dive!

murf

 

[XTrooper]

I keep my Smith & Wesson Performance Center 627 UDR 8-shot .357 Magnum loaded with Federal 158gr Hydra-Shoks.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The Gold dot 158s will do fine IF you are using Buffalo Bore ammo loaded with them.

Why?

1390 fps from a FOUR inch barrel.

Yep, you will get lots of expansion at that velocity!

Deaf