Defense loads out of 6" .357?

[Panzerschwein]

Hey everyone, I am curious if anyone has tested or seen tested defense loads in .357 magnum fired out of 6" .357 magnum revolvers. I often here great things about the 125 gr. SJHP and JHP from many manufacturers but these seem optimized for 4" barreled guns.

The reason I'm writing this is because I've recently acquired a Ruger GP-100 with a 6" tube. It is serving as primarily a range gun but also for home defense. I am concerned that some loads such as the 4" friendly 125's might overexpand/fragment when coming out of the longer 6" barrel. My load of choice right now is Speer's 125 grain Gold Dot .357 magnum, not the 135 grain "short barrel" load but the full power ones. My rational is the bonded Gold Dot might hold together better even if the bullet is going to be pushed too fast out of that long barrel.

Do you guys have any thoughts or opinions on this? What would you consider to be an ideal "full power" .357 magnum defense load for a 6" revolver?

Thank you!

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've tested the sjhp 125g rem load from a 5" bbl (my carry load) and its hot. Expect near 1600 fps velocities.

I actually don't worry about penatratration or fragmentation an these speeds and energy figures. We aren't talking about 380acp hollow points here. With these loads you're getting into near rifle like wounding abilities.

Look at it like this. Even in the event of absolute total bullet failure you're still going to turn several pounds of flesh into shredded bloody goo. If someone continues to fight after that then no handgun round will save you.

 

[627PCFan]

With a quality Gold dot your going to still be in the performance window for expansion and weight retention.

Now if you load that gold dot in a muzzleloader you have a different story.

 

[Hondo 60]

A 6" barrel will give abt 50-75 fps faster (per inch) over a 4" barrel.
So you could conceivably see 100 - 150 fps increase with a 6" barrel.

I have tested this theory many, many times on my arsenal.
(14 hand guns, 2 riles)

 

[rswartsell]

For self-defense the truly remarkable performance of the 125 gr SJHP Rem load is not a 4" only load and for defense purposes in this caliber there is no such thing (within reason) as over-expansion. Remember that the goal here is to stop the fight primarily, with the immediate secondary concern of limiting collateral damage.

For the primary objective you want to incapacitate the attacker. For the second you want to avoid in this caliber under-expansion or over-penetration. If the projectile dumps all of its energy and comes to rest in your target you have accomplished the second. If the manner in which this is achieved makes the attacker incapable of continuing the attack you have accomplished both. You weren't thinking of cooking him and eating the results were you?

Now that there is a bit of age on the Rem 125 gr SJHP, we find advances in "powder blending" and bullet technology that allow within a fairly narrow band matching the expansion properties of SD bullets to expected velocities. These advances change the formulations for some slower expected velocities. Minimizing muzzle flash from expulsion of yet unburned powder in shorter barrels and maximizing the expansion of the bullet at lower velocities. The changes helped the 2" guns. I do not believe the 125 gr Rem SJHP was as finely tuned as this for 4" barrels, nor do I believe that the result of pushing one through a 6" bbl is counter to the stated objectives. It will not make it less effective in stopping the fight (by completely exploding on contact and thus under-penetration?), nor will it be decisive in creating over-penetration.

The performance of this now venerable round (like all others before it) did not change a whit by subsequent advances and it has been used in all 3 common barrel lengths (2,4,6) very effectively. Big fireballs and less expansion in 2", Goldilocks "just right" in 4" (accepting without analysis your claim) and more expansion and possible fragmentation in 6".

If you want to shoot through car bodies, a feral hog or a bear then under-penetration as a result of over-expansion and fragmentation is a real concern. In which case, try solid RNFPGC (Round Nose Flat Point Gas Check) in either 180 or even 200 gr bullets (hunting rounds).

 

[rcmodel]

Don't even worry about it.

If it works good in a 4", it will work even better in a 6".

Hornady for instance shows the 125 grain XTP-HP bullet performance envelop to be 850 - 1,600 FPS.

Most factory loads will not deliver an honest 1,600 FPS.

rc

 

[R.W.Dale]

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...n-125-sjhp-chronied-3-snubby-other-loads.html

Some velocity figures

 

[Panzerschwein]

Nice thanks fellas!

I sort of dig my 6" barrel because theoretically it should reduce muzzle blast and flash if I ever have to fire it inside. I also like the extra velocity and energy and increased sight radius if a long shot is ever needed (unlikely but still) as well as the muzzle-heavy weight aiding in recoil recovery. I just was concerned bullet failure could result from the faster velocities.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Nice thanks fellas!

I sort of dig my 6" barrel because theoretically it should reduce muzzle blast and flash if I ever have to fire it inside. I also like the extra velocity and energy and increased sight radius if a long shot is ever needed (unlikely but still) as well as the muzzle-heavy weight aiding in recoil recovery. I just was concerned bullet failure could result from the faster velocities.

In a dark enclosed room like a bedroom you will not notice any less muzzle blast or flash between a 4" or 6" barrel .357 Magnum. Factory 125gr .357 Magnum ammo can be fired in a Carbine without the bullet failing so I would not worry about the additional 2 inches of barrel on your revolver over a 4" barrel.

 

[19-3Ben]

In a dark enclosed room like a bedroom you will not notice any less muzzle blast or flash between a 4" or 6" barrel .357 Magnum. Factory 125gr .357 Magnum ammo can be fired in a Carbine without the bullet failing so I would not worry about the additional 2 inches of barrel on your revolver over a 4" barrel.

This. And while we're at it, the Gold Dot is a great round. I would recommend it over the old SJHP. The SJHP USED TO BE the bee's knees back when nobody knew any better and we all just lived with things like bullets clogging up with clothes, jacket/core separation, etc... Those problems have not been eliminated, but they have been greatly reduced through technology and the development of modern ammunition like the Gold Dot.

People like to tag it as "Well, it's as effective as it always was." The same thing can be said of every type of ammo that came before it from the minie-ball, up to LRN loads. But being as effective as it ever was, does not mean it's the most effective load currently and we are in the business of giving ourselves every edge/advantage here. That's why we have guns in the first place.

 

[willypete]

Out of my 4.2" GP100, I get 1480 fps with the Remington 125 gr SJHP. From my 6" GP100, I get 1625. From my 6" Colt .357, I get 1576. YMMV. I guess that backs up the 50-75 fps increase per 1" of bbl that was previously mentioned.

 

[R.W.Dale]

People like to tag it as "Well, it's as effective as it always was." The same thing can be said of every type of ammo that came before it from the minie-ball, up to LRN loads. But being as effective as it ever was, does not mean it's the most effective load currently and we are in the business of giving ourselves every edge/advantage here. That's why we have guns in the first place.

This gross oversimplification ignores the fact that when it comes to stopping or killing things with a handgun you can only get SO effective after which it's impossible to get MORE dead or stopped.

In this context the 125g sjhp was and still would be as effective as just about any other handgun sd load short of a rifle at doing what it's designed to do. Gold dots are awesome in that they've brought lesser handgun rounds up to the same level that the SJHP enjoyed at the sunset of the service revolvers reign. But that detracts nothing from the rem loads stellar track record

 

[19-3Ben]

This gross oversimplification ignores the fact that when it comes to stopping or killing things with a handgun you can only get SO effective after which it's impossible to get MORE dead or stopped.

In this context the 125g sjhp was and still would be as effective as just about any other handgun sd load short of a rifle at doing what it's designed to do. Gold dots are awesome in that they've brought lesser handgun rounds up to the same level that the SJHP enjoyed at the sunset of the service revolvers reign. But that detracts nothing from the rem loads stellar track record

No argument there. And yes, trying to discuss merits and ballistic advantages of loads in only two paragraphs could only be the done with oversimplifications. No doubt about it. And there is no reason to think that the 125gr. SJHP isn't effective.

I just realize that as long as I am buying 125gr. .357mag ammo for SD, I might as well buy one that has more reliable expansion, all else being equal.

If you prefer the older load because it most likely does just as well, go for it. No skin off my back, and frankly I'd feel well armed with the SJHP. I just choose modern bonded hollow-points because... well.... why not?

 

[armsmaster270]

I have 3 favorite loads for SD 125gr JHP, 135gr Gold Dots & 140gr Silvertips.

 

[Panzerschwein]

No argument there. And yes, trying to discuss merits and ballistic advantages of loads in only two paragraphs could only be the done with oversimplifications. No doubt about it. And there is no reason to think that the 125gr. SJHP isn't effective.

I just realize that as long as I am buying 125gr. .357mag ammo for SD, I might as well buy one that has more reliable expansion, all else being equal.

If you prefer the older load because it most likely does just as well, go for it. No skin off my back, and frankly I'd feel well armed with the SJHP. I just choose modern bonded hollow-points because... well.... why not?

I echo these same sentiments. No doubt would the older SJHPs work but God knows the Gold Dot is one versatile and flexible bullet. I trust it over a wider range of variables, that's why my GP-100 currently has a whole cylinder full

 

[rswartsell]

And I agree^

That sure doesn't mean that I would feel the LEAST bit under armed with my 6" 686 or 6" DW with a cylinder full of Rem 125 SJHP. It don't work that way and dead is dead.

Less grim, goal accomplished needs no embellishment.

P.S. But understand I'm an old school guy that feels pretty good with a 2" DS in my pocket stoked with 148 gr wadcutters. When I know I'm carrying for SD it is loaded with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 +P. Capiche?

 

[Stainz]

I still like the .38 Spec +P 158gr LHPSWC, such as Georgia Arms load with it's harder lead or the softer leaded Remington R38S12, neither of which seem easily obtained these days. Both chrono similarly: 840-860 fps from my 1 7/8" 642 and 2" 10; and both nudge 1,000 fps from my 6" 66. I try to keep the GA Arms ammo for the 6" 66, due to it's harder lead, but opt for my #10 Speedloaders to carry the softer Remi's for the 2" 10 or 4" 64. I also have them on X8 moonclips for my 4" & 2 5/8" 627's. They have a known stopping capability, even if they don't have the 'shock and awe', ie, flash and crack, of .357 Magnums. Just my choice.

Stainz

 

[RealGun]

My GP100 (5") is the gun I use with 158 gr bullets, which are a bit much in my smaller SP101 3". I don't see the importance of breathtaking velocity numbers for close range self defense. I want some mass in the bullet I'm shooting.