Officer thwarts shooter by jamming his finger in assailant's gun

[hitbackfirst]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nyp...by-jamming-finger-into-trigger-of-felons-gun/

Despite the title of this article, what actually happened was the officer jammed his right ring finger in between the Taurus .38 revolver's hammer and cylinder, making it impossible for the armed assailant, Eugene Graves, to shoot. Graves tried to pull the trigger so many times, he broke the officer's finger.

Although I am certainly glad this officer survived with only a broken finger, is this case an example of a potential weakness in relying on a revolver for a self defense weapon?

Is this perhaps an argument for a DAO revolver like the Smith 642/442?

Just some things to consider...

 

[mod60rimfire]

You can still stop a DAO revolver too.
Hold the cylinder like your man part is falling off.

 

[ants]

I seen Bugs Bunny disable a shotgun with a finger in the muzzle.

But I think it was staged, since rabbits don't even have fingers.

Just having fun.





Seriously, there are semiauto pistols with exposed hammer. Like the 1911. It hasn't been a problem with those.

I think we would have heard something by now if all pistol and revolver with exposed hammer were so easily disabled in a defense situation. We would have heard something by now.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Having the revolver DAO would have made no difference. The trigger still has to move back, the hammer (they still have them, just internal or spurless) cock and the cylinder rotate to fire the shot. You can also disable one by wrapping your hand firmly enough around the cylinder to prevent it from turning (see above). But an autoloading pistol can also be disabled by grabbing it, if, for example, the slide were to be pinched back enough to push it out of battery and activate the trigger disconnect. All in all, this is pretty far down on my list of priorities.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The title of this thread is misleading. He blocked the hammer.

 

[Shienhausser]

I'm sure I'd have another hand free if someone jammed my gun in such a way, if so, that hand would be in that persons eye, jamming it out, or punching him in the balls. I'm sure the hand jamming my hammer would be removed rather quickly.

 

[Purgatory]

You can also cause an auto to fail and be useless (without a good two handed tap and rack) by wrapping your hand around the slide and frame and holding on for dear life while deflecting the first shot away from or just past your body.

If the slide can't cycle, the gun will jam most likely and become a bludgeoning weapon that you'll still have to fight to control. But I'd much rather be wrestling an assailant with a hammer than one with a loaded and fully functioning firearm.

Yes, of course it sounds ridiculous, but if it's all you've got in a spur of the moment face to face struggle for your life, possibly on the ground, it'll certainly buy you time.

May not be pretty and may not be perfect, but no-holds-barred street fighting for your life usually isn't.

 

[MakarovCC]

And here is something even more ridiculous about 1911A1's...if someone is pushing the mouthof the barrell against you, hold it there with all of your might, cuz if the slide is pushed back a tad, it won't fire. They actually taught us that in the Marines. Ours is Not to Wonder Why, ours is to say "Are you fricken nuts?!!!"

 

[Sky]

And here is something even more ridiculous about 1911A1's...if someone is pushing the mouthof the barrell against you, hold it there with all of your might, cuz if the slide is pushed back a tad, it won't fire. They actually taught us that in the Marines. Ours is Not to Wonder Why, ours is to say "Are you fricken nuts?!!!"

Actually that is correct; could probably grab the BG's hand jamming the weapon against you and it will not fire but feel sorry for anyone who loses contact for a millisecond. The Army taught the Marines that! hahahaha

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, all these techniques are true, sorta
you can disable a gun by sticking a finger in the barrel... at the cost of your finger and most of your hand, but it likely will have issues after that, unfortunately a gun can still shoot with a bulged barrel.

pressing the semi auto's slide back opens the bolt face/chamber gap and causes most gun to trip the disconnector --- Hence it will not fire
this can happen from pressing a semi's barrel into someone, it's not the barrel, but the slide that is the trick to this.

All guns can be disabled by putting a finger behind the trigger
those with exposed hammer by putting a body part (finger, web of the hand) between the hammer and firing pin. Revolver can be stopped by grabbing the cylinder and using the mechanical advantage to defeat the trigger pull.

Non of these techniques are advised, they tend to be rather tricky and you get one thing wrong and you are dead.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Oh and lets not forget about magazine safety's
hit the mag release and gun is disabled...

 

[KennyTHX]

I really doubt that he was thinking, "Oh, jam my finger between the hammer," and was just grabbing for the gun and got lucky with his finger placement.

 

[ShawnC]

Um, all these techniques are true, sorta
you can disable a gun by sticking a finger in the barrel... at the cost of your finger and most of your hand, but it likely will have issues after that, unfortunately a gun can still shoot with a bulged barrel.

pressing the semi auto's slide back opens the bolt face/chamber gap and causes most gun to trip the disconnector --- Hence it will not fire
this can happen from pressing a semi's barrel into someone, it's not the barrel, but the slide that is the trick to this.

All guns can be disabled by putting a finger behind the trigger
those with exposed hammer by putting a body part (finger, web of the hand) between the hammer and firing pin. Revolver can be stopped by grabbing the cylinder and using the mechanical advantage to defeat the trigger pull.

Non of these techniques are advised, they tend to be rather tricky and you get one thing wrong and you are dead.

I'd have to say, as a normal course of business, no, don't attempt this stuff. But if your choice is "I will get shot if I don't do anything" or "I might get shot if I do something" then some of these things are worthwhile knowing (although I have serious doubts as to the effectiveness of sticking your finger in the barrel).
"Oh and lets not forget about magazine safety's hit the mag release and gun is disabled... "
I think my USP will fire without a magazine, but I'll have to look that up...

 

[Loosedhorse]

is this case an example of a potential weakness in relying on a revolver for a self defense weapon?

No: it exposes the tactical weakness of letting your attacker touch you (in case that was previously not clear).

As has been mentioned, semi-autos can be pushed out of battery by contact, and so rendered unable to fire. As a defender, practice weapon retention and firing from retention.

 

[Southern Rebel]

Yep, had a good friend who accidenttly used the same tactic when his wife decided to end his drinking problem forever. Fortunately, she decided to give him a short lecture about the misery he had brought her before she pulled the trigger. He had just enough time to grab for the gun and, luckily, his thumb ended up getting hit by the hammer.

The incident did sober him up long enough to file for a divorce.

 

[browneu]

I saw Jet Lee disassemble Mel Gibson's Beretta with one hand. Or was it a Glock? I can't remember.

Just because I know how to disable a gun doesn't mean I'd want to or could.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk

 

[Shadow 7D]

And just because Holly-FAKE takes a gun apart and resembles it sans (without) a few parts so it can fly apart doesn't mean it's real

Mythbusters did an episode on this (parts at least) finger in the barrel was episode 43

 

[Purgatory]

Many guns fire without a mag inserted.

All Glocks fire without a mag, Thank Gaston!

As well as XDs, MPs, and I'd say most if not 'all' polymer framed pistols.

(I await confirmation or correction on that just for my own curiosity.)

 

[Loosedhorse]

There's a big difference between a defender planning on disabling an attacker's gun in some way (like knocking it out of battery); vs. understanding that it could happen to any gun (including your gun) during a struggle.

I'd much prefer to disable my attacker (at a distance) rather than disable his weapon by grabbing it. And I certainly don't want to give him the opportunity to disable my gun, by design or by dumb luck.

But the fight won't be what I want it to be.

 

[btg3]

As well as XDs, MPs, and I'd say most if not 'all' polymer framed pistols.

I think some variants with mag safety are built for states that require them. And I recall that some police squads are required to have them. For the M&P, the mag safety is easily removed and reversible if you want to re-install. And with a mag safety there's no safety script messing with the aesthetics of the gun.

 

[Purgatory]

I think some variants with mag safety are built for states that require them. And I recall that some police squads are required to have them.

Yes, the mag safety is certainly a plus for an officer who is scuffling with a perp and the perp goes for his gun.

Officer can just drop the mag and render it useless if he can access the mag release.

For the M&P, the mag safety is easily removed and reversible if you want to re-install.

Interesting. I didn't know that about M&Ps. Good to know.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

You can disable pretty much all autos by pressing the front of the slide/barrel back aswell. Don't let the guy touch your gun!

 

[mljdeckard]

I do sometimes demonstrate to students who claim that revolvers are infallible they can be disabled by a tight overhand grip on the cylinder, but no it's not a standard tactic. If you don't grip tightly enough and the gun fires anyway, you are going to get shredded by gasses from the forcing cone.

 

[Purgatory]

You can disable pretty much all autos by pressing the front of the slide/barrel back aswell. Don't let the guy touch your gun!

Agreed.

But that's one thing I love about Glocks and any Glock copy with similar frame characteristics: Unlike 1911, CZ, BHP, etc., the Glock frame extends the full length of the slide.

This prevents the slide from being pushed out of battery when point-blank contact 'is' made with a target and there are actually techniques taught by Military/LE utilizing this feature for close quarters combat/defense.

 

[lemaymiami]

For those of you who are history buffs, Lee Harvey Oswald was taken alive because the officer struggling with him was able to block the hammer strike with his hand... Not that it did Oswald much good since he was killed shortly after.

As far close quarters stuff goes... it's well to remember that you must not allow your opponent close enough to reach your weapon in a life or death situation. A firearm is only a club if you can get close enough (and not a very good club either). I won't quote the stats here but a significant number of police officers each year are killed with their own weapons. That means they were in close personal contact with someone that didn't like them at all... One of our trainers some years ago was skilled enough to take any officer's weapon from its holster (even the so called high security holsters...). He also had a maneuver to violently disarm anyone holding a handgun face to face... if it was close enough. That maneuver was never demonstrated at full speed and power since part of it was guaranteed to break the weapon holder's finger in the process.

The movie scene where the Beretta 92 was disassembled is actually do-able. I was warned about it in training (I carried a re-cycled European 92 in those years, one with the mag release at the bottom of the grip...) a few years before I saw it in that movie. You'd have to do a lot of training to be able to pull that off, but it is possible. I was sad to have to turn that sidearm in but eventually our rules didn't allow first generation Berettas (or any other weapon without an integral hammer safety to prevent accidental discharges if the weapon was dropped with the hammer cocked).

In the gravest extreme... any tactic that allows you to survive is okay. Using safe tactics that are designed to provide you with the advantage are always a better idea.