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Ogre's AR-15

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by George Hill, Feb 20, 2004.

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  1. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    I’ve become known for being the Anti-AR. I dislike the AR and I would happily tell that to Eugene Stoner’s face. However, it’s form is more useful than it’s function. The form, if made functional, would become quite the platform… but this is easier said than done. I’ve been asked to pick an AR-15 that I would be willing to spend my own money on… and really I am not sold on any of them. I wouldn’t buy any of them. None of them are “right†for me. Instead I would have one built custom to my specs. Luckily everything I want is available off the shelf. So here is what I’d have put together:
    My AR-15 is going to have the flat top rail and handguard of the Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97S. I like the long shotgun type rib that helps in fast snap shooting.
    The gas system/action is going to be from ZM Weapons. This system uses an operating rod and a recoil buffer that’s forward of the bolt, not behind. This allows the use of a folding stock, which is nice, but also eliminates the annoying “Sproing†sound. This system is very reliable and much cleaner than the standard AR set up.
    The Bolt and Ejector will be from Robinson Armaments… the Robinson bolt is strengthened and allows for a fixed ejector. This is critical for a rifle if it’s to be as reliable as possible. The plunger type ejector typical of the AR series is just not good enough for me.
    The lower receiver and butt-stock will be from Cavalry Arms. The CAV-15 MKII receiver. This is a lightweight, but very strong stock, molded as a one piece unit for more strength and smooth lines. It’s very comfortable and I love the pistol grip… very nice.
    The upper receiver is going to be the custom side charging upper from JP Enterprises, along with the JP Fire Control System… trigger system and speed hammer. I’ll also use the oversized anti walk pins they offer.
    The barrel is going to be from DPMS, and I’m liking the 7†barrel. I would be happy to pay the federal fee for the Short Barrel rifle… after building this rifle totally to my specs, exactly as I want it, what is another 200 bucks? I’ll have the 7 inch for most uses such as personal and home defense, CQB… I’m also going to want a complete upper as I have specified in a 24 inch heavy fluted barrel for target work at longer ranges. Now here is the kicker… 5.56MM out of a 7 inch tube is pretty useless, but 7.62X39 does much better. This rifle is to be chambered 7.62X39MM, and I don’t want to hear any of you .223 pansies crying about it. Fatter bullet’s make bigger holes and heavier bullets make deeper ones. With a short tube there will not be any of that hypervelocity bullet fragmentation crap that AR-15 bevets keep singing about.
    To top this all off, I will use an optical gun sight. The one that I like the most in form and function is the Bushnell Holosight for the shorty upper and a nice Trijicon unit for the long barreled upper.
    Then I’d put a sling on it and call it good.
    This is the AR-15 rifle that I would actually spend my own money on.
     
  2. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    Well, to each his own. That is about 180 degrees opposite from my ideal AR, but then again, I like the AR design.
     
  3. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    It's an interesting rifle, not for me ;) but you sound like you've thought it out some...

    Only two things I'd add is a suppressor is going to be a very nice addition for any 7" barrelled centerfire rifle, especially one that will be used indoors.

    Also, why 7.62x39? I understand the desire for the bigger, heavier bullet; but 7.62x39 is not renowned for its long-range accuracy. I would think that a 6.5PPC, 6.5 Grendel, or 6.8x43 would give you both the bigger, heavier bullet and the better long range performance for your 24" varmint version.
     
  4. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    We get it...you hate ARs.

    Just buy an AK, it has everything you want stock off the shelf for $299.:scrutiny:
     
  5. Poodleshooter

    Poodleshooter Member

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    Neither are 7" barreled rifles. The 7.62x39 in a SBR is a good idea. Get an adjustable gas port, load with 180gr .311" bullets loaded to 1050fps and thread the barrel for a suppressor while you're at it. Think .300 Whisper. I'd agree that a wildcatted 7mm/7.62x39 would be a better long range choice for his 24" long range upper.
     
  6. QuarterBoreGunner

    QuarterBoreGunner Member

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    I have no idea why but this made me laugh...
     
  7. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    "why 7.62x39?"

    Because this ammo is cheap and plenty. You can get it pretty much anywhere you can get 5.56MM at.
    These other rounds might be better balistic performance wise - but it doesn't do me any good if I can't get the ammo. .300 Whisper or this 6.5 Grendel... I'd go for it in a heartbeat if they sell by the case for less than the price of a CZ-52 at any given gunshow or well stocked shooter's market.
    I like shooting a lot... and when I go shooting, I like to fire a lot of ammo.

    The suppressor - I should have mentioned that. That's a given. Optional of course... give it a nice flash suppressor that accomodates a quick detach suppressor - that would be hell on wheels.
     
  8. CZF

    CZF Member

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    I think you have a good idea.but why continue to foster this
    AR-15 fallacy. A gun design that was new in 1965 is not
    so great after years of repeat problems.


    Some of it related to design and ammo, but still a liability in my book.

    While I don't believe everything i read on the net or watch on TV.

    I make point of the LA Hollywood Shootout movie 44 Minutes.

    Looks like they really tried to depict what actually went on during that
    fiasco.

    You will see the SWAT guys arriving with M-16s, and after a few shots
    one sWAT dude is yelling MALFUNCTION!

    Goodie! Just what you want during an armed conflict.

    I'll also add that they showed the BAD GUY's AK-47, a ROMAK
    "jamming" but this was after thousands of rounds on full-auto.
    IN "real-life" one one probably be out of 75 round drum mags before this
    would happen with the trusty Norinco or other than Romanian AKM.
    I can remember being in a nasty place and being told that every
    AK47 was trustworthy, but the ROMI. That stupid handle out front
    was the real attention getter. Of course, the thousands of M16s
    as sent from the USA for the war effort. Were quickly dumped in
    the harbor!

    Back to the AR. H&Ks new improvement might get the AR to a standard
    of reliabality that someone like myself could accept.

    I see that many people want an AR-15 type assault rifle, and wouldn't
    be able to pay the high price of a G-36 if even offered as a semi.

    I always thought the Gallil was the best of both worlds when they
    were plentiful in the USA. AK reliable and AR like accurate.

    The AR-15 is more reliable in 7.62 x39, but hi-cap mags that work
    are scarce. Same problem with the Mini-30 though.

    THe SPC cartridge is like putting .357 SIG in a 1911. A dated design
    but in this case.. a pistol that works most of the time.

    with sub-caliber perfomance as documented in Afghan/Iraq by our
    nation's finest..along with the constant relibility problems..

    I view the current crop as AR-15/M-16s as widow-makers.
    Very glad that I don't have to be forced to rely on such an arm anymore.

    Glad to see that others (like George) are not so shy about being vocal over the over-rated AR.
     
  9. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    and how many rifles has ZM weapons fielded?
     
  10. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    7" barrel in 7.62x39...

    Hmm. Where have I seen this before? Oh yeah! That would be a Krinkov, kinda like what I did with my Title III paperwork via those wonderful folks in Naples, FL called "Krinks". When mine gets finished, I'm gonna take it over to hkmp5k's place for a Title III family photo op. :D



    [​IMG]
     
  11. QuarterBoreGunner

    QuarterBoreGunner Member

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    Gewehr98...*sniff* that's just beautiful man. *sniff*...
     
  12. RikWriter

    RikWriter Member

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    Wouldn't want it. For one thing, 7.62x39 is far too weak a caliber. For another, the AR system is plenty reliable enough.
     
  13. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    congratulations. you've made a totally unuseable AR.

    the JP speed hammer isn't heavy enough to reliably detonate commie ammo, and the magazine well is totally unsuited to 7.62X39.
     
  14. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    "how many rifles has ZM weapons fielded?"

    That really doesn't matter to me as "Fielding" isnt the option of the maker, but of the Politicos that have the checkbooks. The F-20 Tigershark was a fantastic jet fighter, but it was never "Fielded" either. Then you got the V-22 Osprey, and they are trying to "field" it before it's even functional... kinda like the M-16 in that regard... doesn't matter if 20 Marines are killed or whole platoons worth of Army grunts are wiped out... as long as it's "fielded" it's okay, right?

    I have two associates who own the ZM Post-Ban kits. They have both run case after case off ammo through them without much trouble. However they have had occasional problems with the ejectors.
     
  15. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Well, geese Andrew, I guess if the speed hammer didn’t work I wouldn’t use it… would I?
    And the mag well? I believe I said I’d have this rifle custom made…
    That would mean I’d have a gunsmith MAKE it work. That's what gunsmiths do. That's why I would pay for one to build this rifle.
    You don't have much of an imagination or sense of humor, do you?

    Gewehr98 - Buddy, you nailed it. I'd rather have one of those than 5 AR's. Have you seen those "Stretched Krinkovs" by Krebs? Very nice... but that short barrel... with pretty wood on it... "Elegant Brutality".
     
  16. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Some random points:

    I can shoot my Rock River AR15 thousands of rounds without cleaning, including dusty environments like Raton, NM. It doesn't get that dirty inside, sure, dirtier than a FAL, but it runs, so who cares? It takes about a minute to remove the bolt carrier assembly from the upper and spray it and the inside of the receiver down with some brake cleaner. Optionally, a couple drops of FP10/CLP later and it's good to go.

    There is some value is having something relatively standard. Parts for the AR15 are everywhere. When my M96 broke, it took over a month to get replacement parts from RobArms.

    The direct gas system is robust in its simplicity. Nothing to break or bind.

    There are recent improvements in extractor design and lug design from LMT to aid reliability:
    [​IMG]

    -z
     
  17. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    George, I've noticed that.

    I don't think Andrew was ever issued a sense of humor, reading through his posts here at THR. ;)

    Deadly serious stuff, building custom guns, dont'cha know?
     
  18. MMcCall

    MMcCall Member

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    Congratulations, your AR isn't an AR by any stretch of the imagination.

    May as well call it the GH762 :scrutiny:
     
  19. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    :D Mission accomplished.
     
  20. artherd

    artherd member

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    I was right there with you, untill this:

    Sounds like you want a Bushmaster Pistol.



    7.62x39 is weak. I don't think the ballistics look any better than 10mm AUTO. Why not go .308 if you really have issues ;)

    Why do you want a 7" barrel? That's tiny. And it'll deafen you in one shot indoors (unless you go suppressed :D Even then, 11.5" bbls should do you fine.


    Any CQB rifle is going to be a compromise over a nice 26" barreled boom-stick.

    Once you get past all that, the AR really is a great platform. You seem to have selected parts that should add to the reliability as well, though I'd want to see the whole assembled firearm be droped a few times, left for dead in the mud, then picked up and fired.
     
  21. CaesarI

    CaesarI Member

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    HKM4 in 6.8X43 for me. If they make it, and the mil adopts it, and the AWBan sunsets, I am gonna be one very, very happy customer (course it is a lot of 'ifs' but still).

    Powerful, reliable, cheap and now tactical too!

    -Morgan
     
  22. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Oh, come on now Mad Ogre. This is what you really want! :neener:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2009
  23. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    DMK - you are absolutely right.


    "Sounds like you want a Bushmaster Pistol." Oh yeah... I want one of those... right after I get my nipples peirced and a "prince albert" I'll get one. Promise.
     
  24. Benjamin

    Benjamin Member

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    I understand the point of this post was "what would George have to do to accept an AR 15".

    That said -- what you ended up with sounds a lot more feasable going off a lightweight FAL lower, and a meeper conversion to 7.62x39

    You'd start off with the proper side charging ability, and a gas piston system, rather than having to kludge them out of the ether.


    Regards,

    -Ben
     
  25. Feanaro

    Feanaro Member

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    Merely because something had not been fielded does not make it unreliable, nor does the fact that a weapon was fielded mean it was worth a crap. The M16(before any improvements)? The PTRD-1941(obsolete before it was even designed)? SA-80/L85?
     
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