Oh. Canada...

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KC

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Forces at death's door
report

David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen


Wednesday, December 03, 2003

Canada's air force, as well as either the army or navy, will likely cease to exist around the end of this decade unless the federal government orders a massive infusion of cash, warns a Queen's University study to be released today.

In a scathing report, called Canada Without Armed Forces?, researchers paint a gloomy picture of the country's defences.

If the situation isn't fixed, Canada will have trouble exerting control over its own territory, as well as making a contribution to the international scene and repairing the country's damaged relationship with the U.S., the study concludes.

"The next government will be caught up in a cascading policy entanglement initiated by the rapid collapse of Canadian Forces core assets and core capabilities. This problem will inevitably disarm foreign policy as Canada repeatedly backs away from international commitments because it lacks adequate military forces."

If funding for new equipment continues to decline and is not increased, "then the air force will likely disappear through the 2008-2013 time-frame, and either the army or navy will disappear in the same time-frame."

It recommends the direct intervention of Paul Martin to halt the decline and begin to lay the groundwork for revitalizing the Armed Forces. It also states that the defence budget should be boosted to $18.5 billion annually, up about $5 billion from present levels.

The report was produced by officials with the defence management studies program at Queen's University in collaboration with the Ottawa-based Conference of Defence Associations.

Doug Bland, who led the study and is chairman of the defence management studies program, said the crisis in the military is so extensive that even if Mr. Martin earmarks a substantial amount of money for the Canadian Forces the situation would not change at first. "Even if he found $3 billion a year for the armed forces, it's not going to solve his problem because of the legacy he's been left with" by Prime Minister Jean Chretien and former prime minister Brian Mulroney, Mr. Bland said. "We ran out of armed forces."

He noted that fixing the problem will take the efforts of Mr. Martin's government as well as the next. Mr. Bland predicted that Mr. Martin will likely cut military capabilities to solve other problems he faces.

The country's dwindling military capabilities will further hurt relations with the U.S., which has voiced concerns about Canada not pulling its weight in defence matters, he added. It will also have a direct impact on Canadian sovereignty.

"The real cost to Canadians if this $18.5 billion allocation is not provided will be not simply a loss of international respect, but most likely the loss of control over most of Canada's territory and, ultimately, the forfeiting of national sovereignty," according to the study. "Canadians, it would appear, had best prepare themselves for these ominous apprehensions."

In the past, Defence Minister John McCallum has dismissed such reports, saying that he does not take advice from retired senior officers and military analysts, but from the Canadian Forces leadership. To counter such claims, the report relies heavily on Defence department reports and statistics, as well as studies produced by the Senate and the Commons defence committee.

Mr. Chretien has also dismissed suggestions that a large infusion of cash is needed for the Canadian Forces. "We treat the military very well," Mr. Chretien said in October when he visited Canadian troops in Kabul. "They are very well equipped."

But the report presents a very different picture. It notes that there are two main problems facing the Canadian Forces for the future: There are not enough trained people and not enough resources to train them. Moreover, major equipment is falling apart from age and use, but there is not enough money to replace the gear.

Over the next 15 years the Canadian Forces will need close to $50 billion to replace obsolete equipment. But current projections indicate there will only be about $20 billion available.

The list of equipment that needs to be replaced includes everything from transport trucks and maritime helicopters to Hercules aircraft and fuel supply ships. The report warns against extending the life of such equipment since that would be too costly.

Some of the concerns voiced in the report are already starting to materialize.

Next month, the navy on the East Coast will be without a refuelling ship after one such vessel based in Halifax goes into dry dock. The 33-year-old HMCS Preserver will receive an $18-million overhaul from January to November. In the meantime, the navy's ships will have to come into port more often to refuel or rely on allies, such as the Americans, to provide supplies and fuel at sea.

The report also points out that much of the military's capability to transport troops, whether by air, land or sea, will need replacing and that work has to be done within the next five years on those initiatives. Failing to do that will severely limit participation in overseas missions throughout this decade and beyond.

Mr. Bland said he expects the government will argue the problems are not as bad are portrayed and that the military has been receiving funding and new equipment such as the $600-million Stryker Mobile Gun System. But Mr. Bland added that in the case of the Strykers, it will be several years before the armoured vehicles are delivered and an even longer time after that before there are trained units equipped with the systems.

The study traces the decline of the Canadian military over the decades. From 1985 to 1987, the Canadian defence budget accounted for 2.2 per cent of the country's Gross Domestic Product. Since 1994, the defence budget has dropped from 1.7 per cent to 1.1 per cent, according to the report.

The study also raises concerns about the cost of overseas operations and where the money will come from to pay for those. It estimates that the price tag for the mission to Kabul, along with other operations, will be around $2 billion, but it is unclear where the military will get the funds.

"Afghanistan is a bottomless pit for money," Mr. Bland noted.

Over the years, the military's equipment budget has been raided to pay for such operations, he added.

The study recommends that a planned review of defence issues deal immediately with the crisis and recommend ways in which current forces might be stretched and preserved until replacements come on line. The review should also focus on how to rebuild and transform the military, including looking at the reform of how the federal government buys equipment.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2003
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:(
Another nation on US borders that cannot adequately protect itself? Great....
 
The primary purpose of any national gov. is to provide for a national defense. What a disgrace.

Since we will be footing the bill to protect them anyway, we should just annex Canada (except Quebec). Wee Wee.
 
"Maybe if they used some of the money that they are spending on the gun registry ..... ?"

Nah, that's only $CAN 1billion or so.
 
I'm worried about Canada's sovereignty as well.

Because as an American, I don't want them.

If Canada gets "annexed" or whatever, they'll get representation, and if they get representation...

Imagine adding another New Jersey, California, and a Massachusetts to the electoral map. :eek:

I'd give them $50 Billion just to stay independant. And I mean $50 Billion good American dollars, not those measely $.68 cent Canadian dollars.
 
There are a whole lot of Canadians in the west that are more American than euro-trash socialist, if that is your objection.

Look at it this way, we will adopt some sheeple, but we also get the westerners and a whole lot of hunting ground. And immense natural resources.
 
I'd give them $50 Billion just to stay independant.
I have a better idea ...

Offer them $XX billion for Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC, Yukon, and NWT.

That would change the US demographics in our direction :D

Or maybe we could trade them some states ...?

Unfortunately, the continent is mostly divided the wrong way - horizontally instead of vertically.

edit: 7.62 beat me to it :)
 
"The real cost to Canadians if this $18.5 billion allocation is not provided will be not simply a loss of international respect, but most likely the loss of control over most of Canada's territory and, ultimately, the forfeiting of national sovereignty,"

I read a poem on the internet once, about Canadian forces and what they've been reduced to.

"I am a UN peacekeeper, soldiers with silent guns". All their military trains for is UN peacekeeping missions; to be mercenaries for the United Nations. I don't think the Canadian forces even train anymore to provide for the defense of their own country in the face of an attack.

Not the military's fault, of course, it's their leaders. But what the hell did they expect?

And it's a shame, too, 'cause Canada has some damned good people in its service. For all the gratitude they seem to get...
 
I guess they are similar to the French in that they don't really have much of a need for an army. Of course the French always surrender, and the Canadians just don't get into wars in the first place.

Where is our army money coming from?
we're some odd bazillion dollars in the red thx to Bush, although the economy is creeping back up...
 
Don't worry, the "Mounties" will come to the rescue .... cough, cough ... :rolleyes:

(hummmmmm .... French Canadians .... will leave that for someone else!)
 
What the heck are they doing with their government funds that they can't afford a military?

Giving it away in social(ist) programs?:rolleyes:

The military must not be a priority with Canadians, at least the "we're all one world now" types.

What a shame. Canada contributed far beyond their numbers in WW I and II!
 
Actually, I've heard from Canadians who want to be annexed, shocking as that may seem.

They need to preserve their light infantry at least ... they have some of the best snipers in the world for some reason.
 
"...the Canadians just don't get into wars in the first place"

Funny, I seem to recall the Canadian regiments in WWI and WWII giving rather good performances on European and Pacific battlefields.


"All their military trains for is UN peacekeeping missions; to be mercenaries for the United Nations."

And remember what frequently hapened to Princes that relied on condotteri for their muscle to prop up their tottering states?


"I don't think the Canadian forces even train anymore to provide for the defense of their own country in the face of an attack."

Honestly, why would they need to? They know that the US will take care of most of any problems they might face. The British Empire is reduced to squabbling over parlimentary procedures, and is unable to bring itself to condem Robert Mugabe.
Of course, if you do not act to protect a thing, then it is not something that you truly value.
 
7.62FullMetalJacket, I agree wholeheartedly that politcally, all of Canada west of Lake Huron is probably more conservative, but if you look at the population, I can only assume that it's concentrated in the southeast around Toronto and Ottowa etc. where the political problems stem from.

I sincerely doubt we'll get to pick and choose what parts and people of
Canada we'll be including if it ever does come to annexation. And even those Canadians who wish they were annexed, would likely see what they wish they were destroyed by their very inclusion into the U.S.

Frankly were such an annexation to occurr, I see multiple scenarios where the "evil party" uses manipulation and alliances with thier Canadian counterparts to rig things, such as the new "states" status in the electoral college, new congressional districts, court fights etc.

While the "stupid party" gets occupied with deflecting a fresh round of accusations that conservatisim means "starving children" and "making old people eat dog food" etc. that was thrown up as a smokescreen to distract them from what was really going on.
 
Canada is run by a bunch of parasites and cowards, too afraid to offer any help in the war on terrorism. The Canadian Government is contemptible.

If the western provinces wish to break away and join the US they should be encouraged to do so. They are the ones refusing to participate in the gun confiscation - registration boondoggle.
 
"Maybe if they used some of the money that they are spending on the gun registry ..... ?" Nah, that's only $CAN 1billion or so.
They are now spending only 13.5 billion on defense, but will spend a billion on a national gun registry?

As a teenager in the mid 80's my dream was to buy a couple hundred acres of hunting land and build a small cabin on it and live up there a few months out of the year. At $25 an acre in some spots, how could you go wrong? Then they did all this crap with registering guns. The dream is still going to happen, just in the USA.
 
Rely on US -> More for socialism

Why should they spend $$$ on national defense? They know that if anything happens, they could rely on the US to come to their rescue. They also know that no one will attack Canada in the first place because of the aforementioned reason.

By spending less on the military, they can spend more on socialist programs. Hence, in a sense, Canadians are implementing more socialist government programs at the expense of the US taxpayer.

:fire:
 
Well I am Canadian. I live in Alberta near Edmonton. Many people in the west are disgusted with how the federal government is run but there are sooo many dumb people in this country. I for one would really like to be American, then maybe I can have some rights. As long as a concealed carry law is brought into effect when the US takes us over I don't care. Better yet I could just carry without a permit.
 
Better yet I could just carry without a permit.

Like in Alaska.

Ideally, at least Ideally to me, Canada would just move away from the Socialism. I don't expect Canadians to be Americans or to think like Americans, and I want Canadians to be able to be proud of their country. Imagine if Canada was like a big Idaho or Montana or Alaska....

*shrug* Don't know if that is at all likely to ever happen, though.
 
With the laws in Canada I could carry without a permit and if I got caught my wrist might hurt from the slap. But then if I had to use it, the liberal idiots would put me away for ever.
 
Old news

Covered on TFL 10-11-2002 at: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134573

(Canada) Unarmed, in a hostile world
Unarmed, in a hostile world

By LINDA WILLIAMSON -- Toronto Sun

Quick - name a country with uncertain weapons and defensive capability, a fragile, demoralized military and an unpredictable strongman leader whose "emerging hostility" has invited the wrath of the U.S., putting his country's sovereignty at imminent risk.

If you said "Iraq," go sit in the corner with Defence Minister John McCallum.

Try Canada.

That's the chilling picture painted in this week's scathing report by the ex-military men and defence experts who make up the Conference of Defence Associations - a report titled, lest anyone miss the urgency of its content, A Nation at Risk.

The eye-opening document makes the strongest case yet that 30 years of neglect and budget-slashing have left Canada's military dangerously dysfunctional. (This is the same group, remember, that in last year's report, pre-Sept. 11, pointed out our military investment ranks just ahead of Luxembourg's.)

But this is not your usual lament for more military money - the kind Liberals like McCallum and his boss Jean Chretien like to shrug off as whining from special interests.

Rather, it's a clear-eyed look at where years of military neglect leave Canada in the post-Sept. 11 world, and the very real risks we all face thanks to naive leaders who believe a "make-love-not-war" attitude scores them political points.

AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT

I'm going to quote at length from it here, because it was upstaged Tuesday by the coinciding release of Auditor General Sheila Fraser's latest attack on government waste and incompetence (which also included some defence horror stories). And because it is, frankly, a must-read.

For his part, McCallum dismissed the report's "apocalyptic language," while the PM blathered something about how he's received a lot of praise for our troops' work in Afghanistan (huh?). None of which addresses its crucial core message (read it for yourself at www.cda-cdai.ca).

It bluntly warns that the Canadian Forces are in a "crisis" that threatens not just their capability but Canada's sovereignty. To cite just one example, the CDA estimates the navy will be so downgraded in three to five years, it "would have no alternative but to concentrate on homeland defence, and even that would have to be conducted under the direction of the United States Navy." As for the army, in 18 months, i.e., by the time Chretien retires, 50% of its weapons and fleet could be grounded "because the purchase of spares has been neither consistent nor adequate."

The U.S. in particular is not amused with our "defence freeloading," the authors warn."The cumulative outlook from their perspective is that Canada has damaged its relations with its chief ally and trading partner, the USA. This is the result of intemperate anti-American statements made by members of the Canadian government and other senior officials and the sharp decline of the Canadian Forces over the past decade ...

"The U.S. perceives that Canada does not recognize the security problem, let alone assign adequate resources to resolve it ... If Canada does not act to protect itself, others, especially the U.S., will do it for us, with all the adverse consequences this implies ...

"Americans cannot understand why the prime minister seems not to be taking advice on foreign affairs and defence effort. They think it is inconceivable his advisers would overlook the damage he is doing. The U.S. does not understand how Canada can do this to itself ... "

'NEW REALITIES'

In that respect, of course, Americans are not alone. Plenty of us in Canada feel the same way, as do countries like Australia, France and the U.K, all of which have revised their defence strategy and increased spending in recognition of "the new realities," the report notes.

"The USA is preparing for a second terrorist attack. Canada has not considered the consequences of premature detonation on Canadian territory or secondary consequences of weapons of mass destruction," it declares darkly.

Is there a fix? Well, the CDA urges an immediate allocation of $1.5 billion to defence - while noting that of the feds' purported investment of $1.2 billion on "security" in the last budget, only $510 million actually went to the military, $210 million of which had already been spent on the mission to Afghanistan. It also demands a total defence policy review and a new white paper next year. "Only in this way can the serious risks to national sovereignty and well-being be avoided."

Not that the authors are optimistic:

"The only way that the prime minister and his close advisers could be convinced to increase defence spending would be if a major national embarrassment were to occur because of weak Canadian Forces," they write. "In the present situation, this is possible."

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/williamson.html
 
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