Ohio- does "premises" include your vehicle?

[redneck]

I tried to do a search on this but didn't have any luck narrowing things down. I have read the ohio laws and understand the listing of prohibited areas. Some make mention of vehicles and others don't. Most seem to pertain only to a building, or in the case of schools the entire grounds/safety zone. Some say premises, which seems to have vague boundaries.

How far does premises go? Say a business with a class D liquor permit? That is listed as a premises. Would the parking lot be considered on the premises?

What about areas that are posted? The signs say premises, how does that apply?

As an example, construction sites are generally posted. I'm not sure if this is a state requirement or not. Say the office trailer has a poster and the building itself has a poster. Obviously, no carrying in the building or the trailer, so basically no carrying at work. Would this also prohibit keeping a gun in your vehicle, for carry before/after work if the vehicle is parked in the construction area?

 

[huntsman]

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...ations/2009-Concealed-Carry-Laws-Booklet.aspx

for class D (page 12) it says IN premises note the law for open air also.

 

[thorn-]

Addressing 2 examples from your post:

TGI Friday's is a Class D establishment, so you can't carry in there. However, let's say it's a free-standing restaurant (not in a strip mall) and there are no signs posted. You *may* have it in your car.

Natural Herb & Tofu also their own parking lot, but a sign IN the lot says "No guns on premises". It is my understanding you cannot have your gun in the car (i'm really going off memory here) but i know you can't take it inside.

At my workplace, our employee manual says no weapons anywhere on the property. This applies to the lot, of course, as we own it. We also have a sign in the lobby that tells visitors "no guns". Legally, they can have it in their car in the lot, as the lot isn't posted.

I am not a lawyer, btw. For best info, check the law itself.

thorn

 

[Deanimator]

Natural Herb & Tofu also their own parking lot, but a sign IN the lot says "No guns on premises". It is my understanding you cannot have your gun in the car (i'm really going off memory here) but i know you can't take it inside.

It is a crime to take a firearm into a posted BUILDING.

It is only civil trespass to have a gun in your car in a posted parking lot. They'd have to know you have it AND ask you to leave. If you refuse, that's criminal trespass.

If you're not waving your gun around in the parking lot in your car, I don't know how they'd know you have it. I've never felt compelled to wave my gun around in my car in a parking lot, whether it was posted or not.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Deanimator:

One problem.... There's some fuzz in the Post Office parking lots situation - some people hold that you can't possess a weapon in them. My vote is that the lot has to be cordoned off - like where they keep the delivery vehicles after hours....

You can read the law the same way for things like the PD parking lots, too, as well as other enumerated Criminal Protection Zones. And make the same conclusion about cordoned off areas....

The only problem with "who's going to see it" is what happens if you need to stow the weapon in a glovebox, console, etc., and somebody notices and calls Toby Hoover....

(Inside joke - she's one of the very few members of OH's version of the Brady Bunch. Lots of press, no depth.... They seem to exist to provide Brady press releases to the media and scream "for the children" on cue....)

One more nasty exception: Primary schools.... In OH, unless you're picking up or dropping off a child, you can't bring a firearm onto the school grounds. Parking lot, building, grass, etc. There's no case law (this exemption is still brand new), and no provision to get out of the vehicle to help a little bitty one into a car seat, or pick 'em up if they fall down, etc., although "reasonable" seems to fit. However, if you need to actually enter the building for some reason, leave your gun at home, or park elsewhere. Likewise, this doesn't exempt folks picking up or dropping off non-students. Teachers, staff, etc.

What you do if you're sitting out there waiting for little Johnny and Ms. Witchbreath shows up and demands that you come inside seems to require that you go home first. Thanks Ohio Legislature....

(Deanimator: I know you know all of this.)

Regards,

 

[Deanimator]

The only problem with "who's going to see it" is what happens if you need to stow the weapon in a glovebox, console, etc., and somebody notices and calls Toby Hoover

I almost NEVER disarm at my destination. I make every attempt to disarm before I leave some place for a destination where I can't carry. That way, nobody sees me leave a firearm unattended in a car. Ohio is an open carry state, so it doesn't matter who sees you disarm before you leave.

As far as Toby "Short Bus" Hoover, I was at her media "Little Big Horn" before CCW was passed in Ohio. She announced an anti-Jim Trakas (big CCW supporter) event at a park in Independence. Gun owners got the word and showed up in force, LONG before she and her tiny band of the mentally and morally handicapped arrived. We easily outnumbered them 5 to 1 at the least. In fact, we surrounded them so that the TV news crews couldn't get a shot of her without getting one of our pro-CCW signs in frame. The crowning indignity for Toby was when John Lott showed up unannounced to give a short speech in favor of CCW. The news people practically trampled Toby into the ground to get to the other side of the park to interview Lott. She was UTTERLY humiliated. It's been all downhill for anti-gunners in Ohio since then.

 

[thorn-]

Ahhh Toby Hoover. Hahahah. There's a name I haven't heard in awhile.

thorn

 

[Deanimator]

Ahhh Toby Hoover. Hahahah. There's a name I haven't heard in awhile.

Along with Yahoo Serious, Vanilla Ice and Tymak... all with good reason.

Toby "I'm Going to Bovine University!" Hoover, she's so 2003...

 

[redneck]

Thanks for the input guys, I had figured that the class D licensed places mainly referred to inside the building/sales area (open air). I haven't come across any parking lots that are posted.

I think I'd be legal leaving it in my truck on the jobsite too, but will do some more reading.

 

[Deanimator]

I haven't come across any parking lots that are posted.

The parking lot of most of the malls to which I go in NE Ohio are posted, including Great Northern and Crocker Park.

Westgate is not. I usually go to Books a Million in Westgate in preference to Borders and Barnes & Noble in Crocker Park, except when I need to buy a New York Review of Books, which is generally available ONLY at Barnes & Noble and Borders.

 

[NavyLCDR]

One problem.... There's some fuzz in the Post Office parking lots situation - some people hold that you can't possess a weapon in them. My vote is that the lot has to be cordoned off - like where they keep the delivery vehicles after hours....

Not the post office parking lot, AGAIN! It's very simple. You cannot carry or STORE a gun on post office property and post office property is defined as any property under the charge and control of the post office. So, let me ask you this, if you had a car with expired tags, or if you were doing drugs in the parking lot of the post office, do you think the post office would be able to evict you from their public parking lot? Any person with common sense would say yes, they can evict you from their parking lot, just like Wal Mart can evict someone from their parking lot. The parking lot is under the charge and control of the post office and, therefore firearms carry AND STORAGE is against 39 CFR 232.1(l).

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title39/39cfr232_main_02.tpl

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.



And yes, the CFR does state the property must be posted, HOWEVER, there is no nullification of the regulation if it is not and there is no prohibition on prosecuting/convicting a "victim" if it is not posted. It is only a posting requirement with NO consequences for not posted - hence your argument of the parking lot having to be cordoned off is invalid. Notice also, the requirement for posting is only at a conspicuous place and NOT at the entrance.

 

[SMMAssociates]

NavyLT:

So, what if the Post Office is in a strip plaza? Do they "control" the whole lot, just the few spaces in front of their door, or just the cordoned off area in the rear?

I just choose to ignore it.... Don't go inside with the gun....

(I don't want to start another Post Office thread .... It's pretty clear that it's not a good idea to carry into the building. I doubt if any licensee would have a problem out front in the parking lot if not waving it around somehow. Here in OH, I hold - IANAL - that the Federal Law permits a licensee to carry but the State law pre-empts that with a NO....)

Here in OH, "reasonableness" seems to be a moving target, but if a property is not posted or fenced, and is part of a strip plaza in such a way that the whole plaza (or a substantial part of it), then it smells like entrapment to me. In short, you can't be expected to know which portion of the lot is Post Office "control"....

Regards,

 

[Just One Shot]

My car is part of my domain. In fact it's recognized in the Castle Doctine as such. If I'm visiting a no carry zone then I have to have someplace to secure my CCW.

As long as the parking lot isn't part of a secured facility I don't believe any LEO would hassle you for having a properly secured firearm in your vehicle.

Are there any Lawyers LEOs here that would like to chime in on this?

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT:

So, what if the Post Office is in a strip plaza? Do they "control" the whole lot, just the few spaces in front of their door, or just the cordoned off area in the rear?

I just choose to ignore it.... Don't go inside with the gun....

(I don't want to start another Post Office thread .... It's pretty clear that it's not a good idea to carry into the building. I doubt if any licensee would have a problem out front in the parking lot if not waving it around somehow. Here in OH, I hold - IANAL - that the Federal Law permits a licensee to carry but the State law pre-empts that with a NO....)

Here in OH, "reasonableness" seems to be a moving target, but if a property is not posted or fenced, and is part of a strip plaza in such a way that the whole plaza (or a substantial part of it), then it smells like entrapment to me. In short, you can't be expected to know which portion of the lot is Post Office "control"....

Regards,

If the post office is in a strip mall, then none of the public parking lot is under the charge and control of the post office, it is under the control of the owners of the strip mall (except for any area specifically leased by the post office for loading/unloading mail.)

If the post office is inside another store, only the area behind the counter is under the charge and control of the post office, the area in front of the counter is under the control of the owner/management of the store. In that case, you could legally do business with the postal clerk while you were armed so long as you did not go behind the counter because you would never actually be on property under the charge and control of the post office.

Ohio does not have castle doctrine for vehicles. That is plain to see because a non-licensed person may keep a loaded handgun in their home, and may carry that loaded handgun in their home, however, when they enter their own vehicles, they must not only unload the gun, but unload all magazines for that gun as well - clearly not castle doctrine for vehicles.

 

[Deanimator]

Ohio does not have castle doctrine for vehicles.

FAIL

 

[SMMAssociates]

If the post office is in a strip mall, then none of the public parking lot is under the charge and control of the post office, it is under the control of the owners of the strip mall (except for any area specifically leased by the post office for loading/unloading mail.)

NavyLT:

I think that's what I said ....

If the post office is inside another store, only the area behind the counter is under the charge and control of the post office, the area in front of the counter is under the control of the owner/management of the store. In that case, you could legally do business with the postal clerk while you were armed so long as you did not go behind the counter because you would never actually be on property under the charge and control of the post office.

Yup.... If there's a P.O. in the Krogers, for example.... It appears that my local Post Office is such that I can use their outer lobby - they've conveniently posted only the inner area and sales counter. The P.O. Boxes and drop bins are in the outer lobby. I'm a "Branch Post Office", courtesy of Stamps.com, so I never have to go inside anyway. (It would be kinda funny if I couldn't carry in my own office....)

Ohio does not have castle doctrine for vehicles. That is plain to see because a non-licensed person may keep a loaded handgun in their home, and may carry that loaded handgun in their home, however, when they enter their own vehicles, they must not only unload the gun, but unload all magazines for that gun as well - clearly not castle doctrine for vehicles.

Deanimator is correct.... The vehicle carry silliness excempts CHL holders, though. Non-licensees are stuck with unloaded transport. Licensees still must abide by some slightly silly rules, but "locked in the trunk" pretty well covers most of it. If you leave your spouse, significant other, kids, or a valet the car, though, the weapons are supposed to be completely unloaded. Some of us OH guys feel that if the folks left with the vehicle lack access to the guns, they're OK. No case law....

Castle doesn't appear to allow us to protect the vehicle, though, if we're not inside, unless a family member or friend is inside. If you walk up to your vehicle and some BG is stealing it, you kinda have to help.... If he attacks you, it's pure SD, without Castle. If you're in the car, though, Castle applies, but you'd best keep retreat in mind.

Regards,