ok they exchanged the green dot BUT!

[poor man]

they are out of power pistol and its on back order for awhile.... Sooo

i got the red dot because id read here that the blue dot wasnt too good, now im back to square one.. Alliant doesnt show a load data for a 40S&W and im not seeing any in the books and papers i got here (still waiting for my lymans manual to get here) where is there a online source of load data for red dot?

im going to load 180 GR TCFP BB S lead and shoot it out of a bersa mini 40

thanks

 

[LiveLife]

Disclaimer: Use the following unpublished load data information at your own risk.

Red Dot is faster burning powder than Green Dot and will produce more snappy recoil (Personally, between Red Dot/Green Dot for 40S&W, I would use Green Dot but I would suggest slower burning powders than W231/HP-38/Unique first for less snappy recoil). BTW, there's no current published load data from Alliant for 40S&W and Red Dot or Green Dot (not even for jacketed and only for lower pressure 45ACP) and none in Lyman #49. <hint, hint>

Red Dot is a great powder for 9mm and 45ACP. I use Promo with Red Dot load data (as indicated by Alliant) and it produces accurate target loads. I tested it for 40S&W and while it produced accurate shot groups, the recoil snap was more than I preferred over W231/HP-38/Universal.

I currently use 4.0 gr of Promo with 180 gr lead bullets and suggest Red Dot start/max work up of 3.8 gr - 4.4 gr. YMMV

Here's 2004 Alliant load data for Red Dot/Green Dot:

 

[rsrocket1]

Like I told you yesterday, Green Dot is slower than Red Dot, but faster than Unique. Now that you have Red Dot, you will end up with slower muzzle velocities at max pressure. As bds showed, these are MAX loads. Start at least 10% lower and work up while looking out for overpressure signs. Frankly, I wouldn't use more than 4.3g in 40 with a 180g bullet, my typical Red Dot load has been 3.0g with a 180g lead TC bullet which feels like a 9mm.

Red Dot is not a bad powder, in fact I just bought a 8 pound jug last Saturday for 12 gauge skeet loads and shot a couple of rounds this week with it and it performed flawlessly. It is also a great powder for low recoil pistol loads. It just won't get you the velocites that a slower pistol powder will such as Unique or Power Pistol.

 

[LiveLife]

Frankly, I wouldn't use more than 4.3g in 40 with a 180g bullet

Good suggestion. Due to larger flake size, Red Dot/Promo may meter with .2/.3 gr variance on some powder measures.

 

[LiveLife]

These are my results from Promo testing with Red Dot load data. As you can see, 3.5 gr was a "No Go". 3.8 gr started to produce more consistent accuracy with 4.1 gr showing improvement in accuracy trend. I settled with 4.0 gr and 180 gr lead TCFP (MBC IDP #5) for a nice combination of accuracy and tolerable recoil.

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

 

[poor man]

thanks Guys..

 

[rcmodel]

Gosh!

I here I thought we had you a .40 load all sorted out in the Green Dot thread!!

rc

 

[poor man]

" Gosh!

I here I thought we had you a .40 load all sorted out in the Green Dot thread!!"

LOL i did too but i was under the impression that green dot wasnt that good so i wanted to get "better" powder But im limited to what they have here..

thanks

 

[GaryL]

bds - it would be interesting to see what kind of velocities you are seeing with those loads. I suspect pressures are rising fairly quickly (and non-linear) at the higher end.

 

[LiveLife]

GaryL, yes I do also but I shoot mostly at indoor ranges and can't set up a chrono (one is 15 minutes away).

That's why I settled on 4.0 gr Promo load for the 180 gr lead TCFP bullet along with the reason that my newer Pro Auto Disks meter Promo with .2-.3 gr variance but my 20 year old Pro Auto Disk is metering within .1 gr variance verified on Ohaus 10-10.

The closest outdoor range I can set up a chrono is about an hour away and I can plan to do some chrono testing this spring/early summer.

Perhaps someone else can do some chrono testing in the meantime?

 

[LiveLife]

I found these chrono numbers showing Promo with slightly higher velocity than Red Dot but at 5.0 gr powder charge using FMJ bullets (4.0 gr with 180 gr lead bullet should be less is my guess). Since the Blazer/Promo loads showed the same velocities, you don't think ATK/Speer/CCI is using Promo in their factory ammo?

http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammun...3262-40_s_and_w_reloading_chrono_results.html

loads out of my Glock 22

5.0 Red Dot 180 FMJ - 918
5.0 Promo 180 FMJ - 1003
Blazer Brass 180 - 1003

 

[rsrocket1]

bds,
Interesting that your accuracy was all over an 8" x 11" sheet at 10 yards. That was using a bench rest? I shoot at 13 yards and have never had a load shoot that poorly. I went all the way down to 2.5g Red Dot under a 180g Lead TC Bear Creek moly bullet and averaged 662 fps with a sub 2" group. The only problem with that light of a load was that with 2 out of 5 magazine loads, the last round did not lock the slide back. I therefore made my min load 2.8g which averaged 712 fps and 100% reliability with the slide on the last shot.

All of my loads shoot better than I do off hand so that if I can keep the group under 2" at 13 yards, that's good enough for my practice loads.

My biggest problem with nice stout 40 S&W loads (~180 PF with 5g Bullseye or 6g Unique) is not practicing enough. If I don't shoot at least 100-150 each week, I find that I start flinching after a couple of magazines worth and the bullets start to go low. I could shoot the light Red Dot or Clays loads all day long and keep them inside a 2"x2" post-it note.

Looking at my Red Dot notes, I see that my best accuracy light load was 3.5g @ 838fps and I simply never went beyond 4.0g which gave me 932 fps. Maybe now that I have an abundant supply of Red Dot, I'll work up some higher loads and see how they work out.

Oh, and my hat's off to you bds for all the research you did with Promo. I did read all your posts in the past on your work with this powder. I was wondering if you suspect that Alliant blends this powder to emulate Red Dot and if it's too energetic, do they "cut" it with graphite? I emailed them once with theories about Red Dot/Promo, and the relationship between Unique, Bullseye and Power Pistol but they never responded.

 

[ljnowell]

bds,
Interesting that your accuracy was all over an 8" x 11" sheet at 10 yards. That was using a bench rest? I shoot at 13 yards and have never had a load shoot that poorly. I went all the way down to 2.5g Red Dot under a 180g Lead TC Bear Creek moly bullet and averaged 662 fps with a sub 2" group. The only problem with that light of a load was that with 2 out of 5 magazine loads, the last round did not lock the slide back. I therefore made my min load 2.8g which averaged 712 fps and 100% reliability with the slide on the last shot.

All of my loads shoot better than I do off hand so that if I can keep the group under 2" at 13 yards, that's good enough for my practice loads.

My biggest problem with nice stout 40 S&W loads (~180 PF with 5g Bullseye or 6g Unique) is not practicing enough. If I don't shoot at least 100-150 each week, I find that I start flinching after a couple of magazines worth and the bullets start to go low. I could shoot the light Red Dot or Clays loads all day long and keep them inside a 2"x2" post-it note.

Looking at my Red Dot notes, I see that my best accuracy light load was 3.5g @ 838fps and I simply never went beyond 4.0g which gave me 932 fps. Maybe now that I have an abundant supply of Red Dot, I'll work up some higher loads and see how they work out.

Oh, and my hat's off to you bds for all the research you did with Promo. I did read all your posts in the past on your work with this powder. I was wondering if you suspect that Alliant blends this powder to emulate Red Dot and if it's too energetic, do they "cut" it with graphite? I emailed them once with theories about Red Dot/Promo, and the relationship between Unique, Bullseye and Power Pistol but they never responded.

Different guns react different ways to light loads. Barrel rifling can make a big difference. My sig 1911 will shoot the lightest load that cycles the slide and be very accurate. My RIA 1911 will not shoot those worth a crap. Load them up to a normal level and you cant tell any difference in accuracy in the two pistols, from a bench.

When working up loads for my dads 40, using 180gr LTC and AA#5, I found that the book minimum would barely make an 8 inch group, from a rest. When I bumped it up to about 2/3 through the load range it was a nice small group. THose lightest loads shot a perfectly fine group in my brothers xd 40.

You just dont know what will happen with a different gun.

 

[blarby]

This is what happens on the internet.

Everyone solves the problem for you, and it was so much fun, you go and create a new one.

i did too but i was under the impression that green dot wasnt that good

I agree with RC.

I dont shoot 40, so I kept my yap shut... theres great advice in that thread, I think you just listened to the wrong folks.... Or maybe not the wrong folks, just the wrong parts of what they were sayin.


I think this is why problems got solved once in the days before the internet, and there were 5 powders to use.

2 for pistol, 2 for fifle, and one special for shotgun, when we ran out of pistol powders.



Some of us still try and do it this way.

Good luck- BDS's data is the best that I could find as well. Short of some really cool photos of pistols post-blue dot implementation. I still don't know why you don't need to pass a test to use that stuff in a pistol....

 

[LiveLife]

This is what happens on the internet.

Yes.

When I switched my match caliber from 45ACP/9mm to 40S&W, I got a lot of advice from seasoned match shooters (some regional USPSA shooters):

- 40S&W is not accurate
- 40S&W is accurate
- 40S&W is good for making major/minor PF
- 40S&W recoil is snappy
- 40S&W recoil can be made manageable
- Titegroup is good for 40S&W (but they also pointed out many match guns blew up with Titegroup )
- Titegroup is bad for 40S&W

When I asked shooters that usually come out on top in their divisions about 40S&W accuracy, they smiled and said "It's fine. Just practice, practice, practice." As to snappy recoil, "It's all relative" and they are usually too busy/focused on the targets to notice. As to Titegroup, some mumbled that match shooters are very frugal ... but Titegroup can produce good match loads ... but they may suggest better powders. Ultimately, they said try different powders and use whatever the pistol/barrel likes to produce accurate shot groups.

Whenever "What's the perfect powder for 40S&W" thread starts, I go against the grain and suggest faster burning powders. While I do suggest Unique/Universal and slower burning powders for full-power loads but who shoots max charge 40S&W loads with mixed range brass with unknown reload history on a daily basis? If you do, it may be a matter of time for a KaBoom.

As you already know, I am cautious about 40S&W/KaBoom and prefer to load lower pressure target loads with mixed range brass. W231/HP-38 is one of many faster burning powders that can produce acceptable accuracy with lower mid-to-high range load data. Green Dot is another powder that can produce lighter target loads but some suggested that it may be inconsistent at near max charges. Well, so stay below max charges and keep the loads on the conservative side.

Oh, and my hat's off to you bds for all the research you did with Promo ... I was wondering if you suspect that Alliant blends this powder to emulate Red Dot and if it's too energetic, do they "cut" it with graphite?

Thanks.

When my group buy shooters picked me to do load development for Promo, I certainly did not want to blow up my guns or hands. Thankfully, 2004 Alliant load data provided enough Red Dot load data for me to reference and now I recommend Red Dot/Promo for 9mm/45ACP and even for 40S&W. Promo produces the lowest cost loads that are accurate and works with lead loads.

I think both Red Dot and Green Dot can be made to work for 40S&W. My suggestion would lean towards Green Dot as it will meter better due to smaller flake size.

For 180 gr lead bullet, as posted, 3.5 gr of Red Dot would be a good starting charge with 3.8 - 4.0 gr producing better accuracy. Keep in mind, depending on the powder measure used, you may fluctuate upto .2 gr in powder charges.