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Old 9mm brass update….here goes

9mmGoon said:
That’s a ways off as i have some newish Remington brass to play with for now.
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Eliminating variables will help you establish sound handloads. Starting with new... or newish... brass is one of them.

9mmGoon said:
Some split open leading me to believe they’re brittle. Plus they are noticeably harder in the resizing and bell die.
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That's an indicator... for sure... but 'hard' brass, and 'brittle' brass are two different things.

FWIW, I've had absolutely brand new brass I bought as components, from a leading manufacturer, crack on the second firing... in a mid-range .38SPC load, nothing pushing any boundaries. It was brittle from the manufacturer... it happens. After that episode, I've gotten to the point that if I see signs of brittleness... case cracks, case mouth cracks... it goes in the scrap bucket as a lot, and I start over. Contrast that, I've got a few lots of handgun brass that are going on 30 years old, including a 1000cs lot of RP .41MAG brass, loaded 10+ times, at least, with anything from mid-range loads of Unique, to max loads of IMR4227 or W296... without issues. However... as soon as I start seeing case splits... as much as I love my RP brass... it's going in the can.
 
Charlie98 said:
Eliminating variables will help you establish sound handloads. Starting with new... or newish... brass is one of them.



That's an indicator... for sure... but 'hard' brass, and 'brittle' brass are two different things.

FWIW, I've had absolutely brand new brass I bought as components, from a leading manufacturer, crack on the second firing... in a mid-range .38SPC load, nothing pushing any boundaries. It was brittle from the manufacturer... it happens. After that episode, I've gotten to the point that if I see signs of brittleness... case cracks, case mouth cracks... it goes in the scrap bucket as a lot, and I start over. Contrast that, I've got a few lots of handgun brass that are going on 30 years old, including a 1000cs lot of RP .41MAG brass, loaded 10+ times, at least, with anything from mid-range loads of Unique, to max loads of IMR4227 or W296... without issues. However... as soon as I start seeing case splits... as much as I love my RP brass... it's going in the can.
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In addition to the bucket full of 9mm he also gave me 800 44 mag cases of the same era. I haven’t loaded any of them yet. Probably wont until i can find some means of having it and the 9mm tested.
 
9mmGoon said:
As an old guy, ive discovered sometimes the old way was better. Plus i dont load very many at a time anyway…and just to see for myself basically. I hsve no idea what fwiw is lol
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I would go with any undersized die.

Like: LEE 9MM LUGER UNDERSIZED CARBIDE SIZING DIE

I personally use Dillon dies. The resized case should look like a coke bottle. It's under sizing the case mouth. I never have setback issues.

Which sizing die are you currently using?
 
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1-cavediver said:
We shoot USPSA so we load a lot of 9mm. I use 95% range pickup brass, I don’t sort by head stamp and I don’t weigh my brass. I size with Lee carbide dies and I crimp with a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. I don’t get any setback, my bullets stay put!
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I don't shoot anywhere near your volume but I use the Lee carbide die set and it works great for me, too. My "working stock" of brass is mixed head stamp range pickups. They work fine in all my 9mms.
 
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243winxb said:
My RCBS 9mm Luger set has a long tapered carbide insert, keeps the taper in the case body. Others may also? ... Has an M type expander also.
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Lee 9mm carbide sizer ring is tapered as well and resizes brass to smooth tapered finish. And while official announcement has not been made, new 9mm die sets are shipping with stepped "M" style "Square Starting" powder through expanders (Call and ask customer service to be sure).

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Walkalong said:
JohnMc said:
I use the Lee carbide die set and it works great for me
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Me too, the long tapered carbide insert does a great job.
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Same here with Lee tapered carbide sizer ring and different types of bullets 👍

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What non-tapered straight carbide ring could do to "overly expanded" 9mm brass

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I use a hornady 9mm die set and have no issue with brass taper on sizing or neck taper crimp being done with bullet seating. Its good to batch by length or trim if you want uniform crimps with mixed brass - at least once anyway. You still will have different case volums so don't expect to win many turkey shoots but the crimps will be uniform and your bullets shouldn't move around.

Some of the lee seating dies will do taper crimp when you seat the bullet so can take the expander bump out on seating and then you can roll crimp with the fcd to finish it out on rimmed cases. I don't use powder thru dies on pistol ammo though so don't have to fight the expander bump on any of those.
 
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Welcome to THR. :)

OS/N said:
9mm ... trim if you want uniform crimps with mixed brass - at least once anyway ... crimps will be uniform and your bullets shouldn't move around.
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We already myth busted that it is neck tension around .200" below case mouth where case wall is thicker that produce most of neck tension that holds bullet - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12684520

While 9mm taper crimp applied .100" below case mouth where case wall is thinnest can apply slight friction on bullet in comparison, it is insufficient to hold bullet and applying too much taper crimp more than returning flare flat on bullet will actually start to deform the bullet and brass spring back will further reduce neck tension and aggravate bullet setback.

Therefore, for straight walled semi-auto pistol cases like 9mm (I know, it's actually tapered case ;)), no need to trim case as resized case length will get shorter with subsequent reloadings and concern over neck tension should be verified by measuring bullet setback, especially if you are using mixed range brass with different case wall thickness - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

As to taper crimp amount, we are essentially returning case mouth flare back flat on bullet so I usually add average case wall thickness at case mouth to the diameter of bullet to achieve this. For .355" sized bullet, since case wall at case mouth average .011", I will add .022" to bullet diameter (.355" + .011" + .011") to arrive at .377" taper crimp, which is "no taper crimp". But if you measure sample of resized case length and use shorter sample to set the taper crimp amount, you will get "no taper crimp" with shorter cases and "skosh" more with longer cases. ;)


OS/N said:
9mm ... Some of the lee seating dies will do taper crimp when you seat the bullet so can take the expander bump out on seating ... I don't use powder thru dies on pistol ammo though so don't have to fight the expander bump on any of those.
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When Lee Precision asked me to become their beta tester, I strongly suggested they consider offering stepped "M" style powder through expander (PTX) to prevent bullet tipping during shellplate index and bullet seating, especially when using with new inline bullet feeder die and rotary magazine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-through-expander.916523/page-4#post-12725787

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Final production version of stepped "M" style "Square Starting" powder through expander is shown on the left and minimizes overworking case mouth by not overly flaring without concern for "expander bump" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-through-expander.916523/page-2#post-12709566

These are mixed range Blazer/WIN/R-P and new RMR cases step expanded with new PTX

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Lyman has had the stepped expander for awhile. Having it in a powder through die is a good idea as long as the powder measure gets the little thump it needs to keep the measure working properly. My 223 powder through die doesn't have an expander at all but seems to do okay throwing charges so maybe the expander bump isn't all that importaint.

With a taper sizing die it can be adjusted up a little so the expander die doesn't make a bump in the case wall when its used. This generally yields the correct tension with the case mouth taper crimped to 0.380 or a little under based on your bullet od and wall thickness. If you load different bullet diameters or case wall thicknesses or lengths at the same die setting your ammo may not be very consistaint in pressure (neck tension or powder pressure).

Taper crimping doesn't hold bullets on straight wall cases very well but it can be used to shape the case up a little during bullet seating before it is roll crimped. If you put to much on it the cases will buckle or wreck the bullet od and maybe cause the seating stem to dent the bullet nose from to much pressure when seating.
 
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Howa 9700 said:
I'm still trying to understand the mechanism of blown case. How an otherwise sound, once fired brass case could suffer a blowout in a normal chamber. Would think an overcharge or high pressure situation would simply blow the case out the back and damage the frame or slide.

Also, since the first thread, tried resizing some supposedly once fired F-C cases and with about 1 in 5......it was a hard pull. Inspecting those, found no evidence of a split, but when I measured, all of them were at least 0.010 larger in diameter, measured about 1x the width of the caliper jaws just above the extractor groove. Was not a bump, but more like a bubble. How does that happen when case is supposed to still be in the supported chamber? By the time it is extracted, would think the pressure would have dropped off to minimal levels.

As to plight of OP, if cases are brittle due to chemical change, would think you could whack such a case with a hammer and it would shatter? If not, hard to see how a once fired case would blow out in a normal situation.
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The test for that is exposure to mercury nitrate.
 
packetloss said:
I would go with any undersized die.

Like: LEE 9MM LUGER UNDERSIZED CARBIDE SIZING DIE

I personally use Dillon dies. The resized case should look like a coke bottle. It's under sizing the case mouth. I never have setback issues.

Which sizing die are you currently using?
Click to expand...
RCBS. The Dillon sound like exactly what im looking for.
 
9mmGoon said:
RCBS. The Dillon sound like exactly what im looking for.
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I like my Dillon but love my Redding sizing dies. That said, the mouth of the Dillon sizing die is larger and I do get the occasional hang up on my Redding sizing die. Nothing that a slight touch of the brass won't fix, but all the same kind of a minor annoyance.
 
bfalcon00 said:
but all the same kind of a minor annoyance.
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That is unfortunately due to the design of the press that doesn't allow much adjustment in alignment between the shell plate and the toolhead/die. One of the reasons I chose to keep my Hornady LNL AP over the Dillon 750
 
9mmGoon said:
I don’t understand it either. Frustrated is an understatement
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Good info. Glad it wasn’t your scale. I can tell you my little Hornady digital scale was way off. Since switching to a beam scale, I’m all good. I don’t know if perfect, and I do have check weights…just don’t really care since all is working well and I am confident with the loads.

Best regards
 
LiveLife said:
What non-tapered straight carbide ring could do to "overly expanded" 9mm brass

index.php
Click to expand...

Is "overly expanded" the same as a case with a "bulge"?

Those cases looked like what I experienced with range 357sig cases. De-bulging before resizing fixed the issue for me.
 
243winxb said:
How about the Lee Undersize die. 90313. Said to size .003" smaller? Anyone try it?

https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Reloading-Undersize-Sizing/dp/B00MO4SKE8
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I have been trying the U die for a few months. It results in a slight hourglass shape to the loaded rounds. Since 9mm is tapered, the amount of undersizing can be adjusted by backing the die out very slightly when setting it.
The only reason I tried it was because every once in a while I would be able to induce an amount of set back on a finished round that I wasn't comfortable with (more than say, 0.002). Since it was an infrequent occurrence I tried the U die as an alternative to sorting brass. I haven't experienced any instances of setback so far.
The downside I am noticing is that I'm getting more cracked brass after resizing. Not a bunch, but a few more than I have previously experienced, which doesn't surprise me.
So, like most equipment, the U die seems to have its advantages and disadvantages.
 
vaalpens said:
Is "overly expanded" the same as a case with a "bulge"?
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Nope completely different.

I recently experienced this with so Xtreme 9mm brass I ran through a Lee "U" Sizing die. The brass had been loaded with 3.1grs of N310 under a RMR 147gr HMW and fired through an Apex Grade M&P9 barrel (which has a fully supported chamber). These cases had been loaded using the same sizing die, but for some unknown reason bulged when run through this time (3 cases in a row). I just pulled the die and replaced it with a Redding Sizing die and continued my press setup.

I didn't have time to investigate it at that time. I'll take a look into what is happening when I get a chance
 
Galling can take place between tungsten carbide sizers & cartridge brass. Not common.
My well used RCBS 357 mag die started squealing and deforming brass. I mostly dont clean brass, just wipe with towel. Over time it damaged the tungsten, not shiny any more.
Some lube would stop the galling.

RCBS replaced my 1972 die, no charge.
9mmepiphany said:
unknown reason bulged
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Try some lube?
 
9mmepiphany said:
Nope completely different.

I recently experienced this with so Xtreme 9mm brass I ran through a Lee "U" Sizing die. The brass had been loaded with 3.1grs of N310 under a RMR 147gr HMW and fired through an Apex Grade M&P9 barrel (which has a fully supported chamber). These cases had been loaded using the same sizing die, but for some unknown reason bulged when run through this time (3 cases in a row). I just pulled the die and replaced it with a Redding Sizing die and continued my press setup.

I didn't have time to investigate it at that time. I'll take a look into what is happening when I get a chance
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Thanks for the explanation.

I though maybe we went from "bulged" to "overly expanded" because we don't want to offend Glock shooters, since "bulged" cases were associated with Glock barrels.
 
vaalpens said:
Is "overly expanded" the same as a case with a "bulge"?
Click to expand...
Before USPSA started using 9mm cases for 9mm Major loads shot once and left on the ground/range floor for unsuspecting reloaders to pick them up, there was "normally expanded" 9mm brass that got resized with any brand resizing die.

Now, we have "overly expanded" 9mm Major brass that particularly experience bulging of case base that's less supported/not supported by chamber and when I experience particularly increased resizing effort, I suspect 9mm Major brass and "plunk check" in tightest barrel I have. If brass fails, I will attempt to resize once more and if it fails the second time, it gets tossed for recycling.

I have Dillon/Hornady/RCBS dies and found Lee 9mm tapered and 40S&W straight carbide sizer ring tend to resize brass to smaller OD and further down towards case base than other dies.
 
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