Please forgive me if this question is too stupid to ask. I read somewhere that in loading a handgun magazine for home defense the first rounds should be hollow points, but after that the rounds should be fmj. The thought being if the BD was still alive he would probably behind cover.
Old man is search of wisdom
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rcmodel
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Total BS.
Disregarding the bathtub and the kitchen counters, most things likely to be found in your house is concealment, not cover.
If a mag full of JHP won't chew through it, it is unlikely FMJ will either.
JHP is the more effective fight stopper, and a little less likely to penetrate through the BG, a sheetrock wall, and kill your neighbor across the street.
rc
Disregarding the bathtub and the kitchen counters, most things likely to be found in your house is concealment, not cover.
If a mag full of JHP won't chew through it, it is unlikely FMJ will either.
JHP is the more effective fight stopper, and a little less likely to penetrate through the BG, a sheetrock wall, and kill your neighbor across the street.
rc
scaatylobo
Member
Look it up
Most will argue till they actually try it ,or read it on the web.
But ALL handgun ammo will penetrate [ ok, there are a few REALLY frangable ones ] far more than a high speed 5.56 X 45 H.P. or soft point.
And FMJ will be dangerous to all building in the line of fire.
I use the best expanding ammo for a handgun that I can find.
Then I also use the fact that I live in a brick ranch so I have some expectation of the outer wall stopping the round.
Most will argue till they actually try it ,or read it on the web.
But ALL handgun ammo will penetrate [ ok, there are a few REALLY frangable ones ] far more than a high speed 5.56 X 45 H.P. or soft point.
And FMJ will be dangerous to all building in the line of fire.
I use the best expanding ammo for a handgun that I can find.
Then I also use the fact that I live in a brick ranch so I have some expectation of the outer wall stopping the round.
Most building materials effectively turn JHP bullets into solid nonexpanding bullets, either by filling the cavity irrevocably with plaster or sheetrock, or swaging the cavity closed like sheet metal or similar materials, or by hopelessly mangling the bullet, like glass does.
So a JHP pistol bullet, by and large, will go through exactly the same amount of things you can hide behind as an FMJ bullet of the same weight, diameter, and velocity would. The difference is what they do when they hit a more liquid medium without punching through a wall or refrigerator door first.
So a JHP pistol bullet, by and large, will go through exactly the same amount of things you can hide behind as an FMJ bullet of the same weight, diameter, and velocity would. The difference is what they do when they hit a more liquid medium without punching through a wall or refrigerator door first.
usp9
Member
The solution is to buy ammo that is designed to do both.
Many barriers will also clog a JHP, causing it to function as a FMJ, so there's no real reason to choose a FMJ in that situation.
This is something that comes up here and there in various forms. When I was first looking at getting a shotgun, there were people who say to load 1 shot of fine birdshot (scare the attacker off), 1 shot of large birdshot, 1 shot of #4 buck, 1 shot of 00 buck, and two slugs. That way you might scare him off with the first couple shots, take him down with the next two, and penetrate through his thick leather jacket with the last two.
I say you should use something on the first shot that you think will bring him down best. If you are concerned with barrier penetration, I would have a spare magazine with FMJs and use that if penetration becomes a valid concern.
This is something that comes up here and there in various forms. When I was first looking at getting a shotgun, there were people who say to load 1 shot of fine birdshot (scare the attacker off), 1 shot of large birdshot, 1 shot of #4 buck, 1 shot of 00 buck, and two slugs. That way you might scare him off with the first couple shots, take him down with the next two, and penetrate through his thick leather jacket with the last two.
I say you should use something on the first shot that you think will bring him down best. If you are concerned with barrier penetration, I would have a spare magazine with FMJs and use that if penetration becomes a valid concern.
Lawdawg45
Member
After 10 threads on the viability of the Taurus Judge, you're question is sheer brilliance!
What you'll find is that most FMJ's are considered target or range rounds and are of a lower velocity, Speer being the exception. The only time I ever considered FMJ's was with my jammomatic LCP, it's the only thing that would reliably feed in it
LD
All those "which to fire first" arguments are silly. With an adequate power gun and accurate shooting, there is no need for worrying about what the third or fourth or fourteenth round will do.
As for FMJ's being low power target ammo, that is nonsense; I doubt that any of our WWII enemies thought they were being shot with low power ammo.
Jim
As for FMJ's being low power target ammo, that is nonsense; I doubt that any of our WWII enemies thought they were being shot with low power ammo.
Jim
For me, a concern I would have with depending on purpose-built range ammunition to fight for my life with is that it's almost invariably range quality as well.
I do not trust that a company would put the same level of quality control into ammunition almost universally acknowledged as being the worst choice for defense as they do into their lines of ammunition made specifically for people to trust their lives to in an unexpected (or expected, I guess, not up to me to to tell people how to live) fight for their lives.
I do not trust that a company would put the same level of quality control into ammunition almost universally acknowledged as being the worst choice for defense as they do into their lines of ammunition made specifically for people to trust their lives to in an unexpected (or expected, I guess, not up to me to to tell people how to live) fight for their lives.
Hardtarget
Member
When I first got my HD shotgun I loaded "light to heavy" until I read more discussion from experienced men. Now I'm loaded 00 buckFfirst to last. I transfered that plan to my pistols as well. Just good defense rounds...only. That way your recoil, muzzle flash, everything is the same. Self defense is stressful enough. I don't want to add variables into the mix.
Mark
Mark
Lawdawg45
Member
I agree, but WWII military issue and modern day supply on the Walmart shelf are two different things.
LD
RickMD
Member
According to FBI statistics TWO shots are fired in the average defensive encounter. Logic would suggest that the first two rounds in your magazine are likely the ones to be concerned with. As opposed to law enforcement situations, it's highly unlikely a homeowner is going to be involved in an extended shoot out with a perp.
PRM
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FBI Statistics on Officer involved shootings say the hit ratio is 2 out of 10 rounds. Some years its 12%, some 16%...hit ratio. Any way you slice it, that number remains pretty constant (2 out of 10).
Point being, why does everyone get wrapped around the axle about the small percentage of rounds that actually hit the intended target over-penetrating VS the majority that speed past it without contact. Shot placement and situational awareness are a big part of the equation.
Hollow points don't always expand or work as manufactures would like to claim. Hand gun rounds don't have the velocity to create secondary wound channels like high powered rifles - so basically your punching holes. Handguns are not the ideal CQC weapon. But, they are what most of us will have available the majority of the time. My personal criteria for choosing a round is how reliable it functions in my specific firearm.
Skylerbone
Member
Just a whole lotta ways to slice that question. Evaluate products available, functionality with your firearm and most importantly your own plan. I know I cannot shoot East from my bedroom. I know I cannot shoot West from my bathroom. Also can't forget about neighbors unless you live in a real log cabin. Consider a carbine as a better option for stopping a threat.
Concerning ammo, I doubt any manufacturer has separate facilities, machinery and employees to produce their "Premium" SD line. No, different bullet, maybe a different powder or a pinch more of the same but nothing magical. If QC for range fodder is poor you can rest assured it will be the same for the lot of it.
Concerning ammo, I doubt any manufacturer has separate facilities, machinery and employees to produce their "Premium" SD line. No, different bullet, maybe a different powder or a pinch more of the same but nothing magical. If QC for range fodder is poor you can rest assured it will be the same for the lot of it.
Texan Scott
Member
Rim Rock Bullets has, on its website, a little set of pictures intended to show you what a bullet's "good for"... hunting, target, competition, cowboy, etc...
there isn't one for SD ammo. The (I think probably tongue-in-cheek) explanation/ comment at the bottom of the legend says "All bullets can be used for self-defense."
I thought that was pretty astute, myself.
there isn't one for SD ammo. The (I think probably tongue-in-cheek) explanation/ comment at the bottom of the legend says "All bullets can be used for self-defense."
I thought that was pretty astute, myself.
The law is going to consider any round you fire to be deadly force, even "less lethal" ones. As a civilian you can only shoot at another person(s) to stop the threat of rape, great bodily harm. or murder. Yes I know, except in Texas.
If you shoot to scare someone off and they didn't make the threat level necessary, guess who's in trouble. If deadly force is truly required have something that amounts to real deadly force.
If you can't deal with the idea that deadly force may mean dead perps, do not have a gun.
If you shoot to scare someone off and they didn't make the threat level necessary, guess who's in trouble. If deadly force is truly required have something that amounts to real deadly force.
If you can't deal with the idea that deadly force may mean dead perps, do not have a gun.
Skylerbone
Member
The law will consider it manslaughter if you kill a neighbor by mistake. I would consider it unforgivable. My East/West scenario above involves not shooting my children, another real world consideration that goes beyond which bullet kills people dead.
Lawdawg45
Member
But as was pointed out in an earlier thread, those numbers are also figured including suicides, animals shootings and AD's, so the number is actually higher. Just something to consider
LD
It only covers officer involved shootings, not private citizen defensive shootings.
Police have an awfully marked tendency to fire a few dozen rounds at a given person in some parts of the country, while a private citizen shooting at a home invader is unlikely to dump thirty or forty rounds in the general direction of the attacker.
Someone shooting defensively is much more likely to be engaging their opponent from very close range, is unlikely to be shooting at a driver from diagonally behind them, with all the bullet defeating structures between them, and is in general just less likely to fire as many rounds at a given attacker or be in a position where they must (or just do) fire dozens of rounds at a single attacker before effectively ending the situation.
I wouldn't assume that officer involved shooting data really apply all that much to a private citizen in their own home. Police have too poor a track record as a group of shooters, especially in the responsibility sector, and they are very frequently firing as a group at people in protective structures or farther away than all but the most unlucky of violent crime victims are likely to be targeted from.
exiledtoIA
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RICKMD re#13 If you read the fine print on the FBI statistics you find an interesting little tidbit.
Every time someone in the fight moves it is classified as a new encounter.
So if you fire and then move to better cover and fire again it's not the same encounter, it's two different encounters in the same fight.
Every time someone in the fight moves it is classified as a new encounter.
So if you fire and then move to better cover and fire again it's not the same encounter, it's two different encounters in the same fight.
easyg
Member
Stick with the hollow points.
Hi, LD. What exactly is the difference between GI ball and the Wal-Mart ammo of the same bullet type, weight and velocity? What am I missing?
As to the OP's question, I seem to recall a similar thread a while back that went like this:
1. Load so the HP is fired first and if they don't stop the BG, he will be running away and you want the longer range FMJ.
2. No. Load the FMJ first and if they don't stop the BG, he will be coming at you and you want the HP to stop him.
3. No, no. The BG will be running away....
4. No, no, no. The BG will be coming at you....
This went on. And on. And on.
Jim
As to the OP's question, I seem to recall a similar thread a while back that went like this:
1. Load so the HP is fired first and if they don't stop the BG, he will be running away and you want the longer range FMJ.
2. No. Load the FMJ first and if they don't stop the BG, he will be coming at you and you want the HP to stop him.
3. No, no. The BG will be running away....
4. No, no, no. The BG will be coming at you....
This went on. And on. And on.
Jim
Lawdawg45
Member
No difference in the bullet, but the modern range ammo is usually loaded down for practice. You don't see this as much in the .45 acp, but in the .38/.357 you'll see 150 to 200 fps slower than the JHP's/+P selection. This was the whole marketing plan for Speer, loading target ammo to the same specs as SD ammo.
LD
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