Old vs. New 45 Colt Load Data.

Status
Not open for further replies.
gilgsn

gilgsn

Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
358
Location
France
Hello,

I am looking at the 1951 Ideal reloading manual, and it gives 10.3gr of Unique for a 250gr cast bullet (1030fps)! Today, I sometimes see less than 8gr as the maximum charge. Is this a legal development, as powder makers don't want to be sued, or is Alliant Unique stronger than it was in 1951? I can't imagine steel being of less quality today than it was back then..

John Taffin mentions 9 to 10gr in a regular SAA: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_47/ai_75287317/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.55

So, why do the loads keep going down?

I plan or trying 8.0 to 8.7gr in a Pietta SAA (4-5/8brl), with a 255gr .452 Lee bullet (comes out at 260). Does that seem reasonable? I want to try by 0.1 gr increment, and I have a chrono.. I am hoping to get 900fps out of that 4-5/8 barrel with the 255gr, and use the same charge with a 200gr bulet..

Ya'll have a great week-end ;-)

Gil.
 
Different .45 Colt case design in 1951.
Back then .45 Colt, .44 Special, and several other cases were often made using a "balloon-head" design. And if not made then, reloaders still had a stash off old balloon-head cases dating to before WWII.

That made them hold more powder, (more case capacity) but also made them much weaker then todays solid web case heads.

And there was really not much actual scientific pressure testing done then either.
Most of the reloading data available had the "pressure testing" done in real guns.
If they didn't blow a case, or blow up the gun, the pressure was O.K. to publish.

Since then, about every reloading manual publisher except Lee has used Copper Crusher test guns to find the actual C.U.P. (Copper Units of Pressure). Lee copies it's data from other sources that do use pressure gun testing.

That C.U.P. method gave a "peak pressure" reading, but could not detect high pressure "spikes" of very short duration.

More recently, most everyone has switched to electronic measuring using pressure transducer methods. That data will be shown in PSI, not C.U.P. units. And the two measuring units are in no way convertable to each other, or interchangable.

The transducer gives a pressure reading along the total time curve of the shot, and in fact, can detect pressure spikes that were formerly totally unmeasured & unnoticed by the C.U.P. measuring system.

In other cases, SAAMI has lowered the MAX pressure allowed, (.357 .41 & 44 Mag), or created whole new classes of caliber pressure limits (Standard pressure loads vis +P loads)

In still other cases, powder manufactures have made slight changes in powder burn rates while retaining the same powder names.
Some powders have been made in several different plants in several different countries over the years. It's all the same powder, but it really isn't.

And yes, we are a kinder gentler nation now then we were in 1951.
Thanks in no small part to the corporate lawyers.

Still, you simply can't use 1951 data with 2011 powder & cases and be safe.

8.0 to 8.7gr in a Pietta SAA (4-5/8brl), with a 255gr .452 Lee bullet (comes out at 260). Does that seem reasonable?
Click to expand...
8.5 Unique with about any 250-260 lead bullet has been the standard Go-To .45 Colt load for more years then I can remember.

It is safe in any older Colt SAA, or any Italian clone like yours.
It also will kill anything that needs killing in the USA.

You would do well to slug your chamber throats and chose a bullet diameter that fits the throats.

Normal .45 Colt lead bullets are sized .452", but your gun will shoot much better & lead less with .454" bullets if .452"s are loose in your chamber throats.
(Matching bullets to bore size is much less importent then matching them to chamber throat size in a revolver.)

rc
 
Last edited:
10 + grains of Unique with 250 grain bullets will shake a SAA or clone loose... if not to pieces in short order. Like rc said 8.5 is generally a good load with 250-260 grain bullets. I would start @ 8.0 and go from there as 8.0 usually turns in superb 25 yard groups in SAA's
 
Because the number of lawyers has gone up.
Click to expand...
I had thought I had explaned it better then that in post #2.

Did you even read it before making your first THR post? :banghead:

rc
 
rcmodel said:
I had thought I had explaned it better then that in post #2.

Did you even read it before making your first THR post? :banghead:

rc
Click to expand...


Yes, in fact I did read post #2 in which you opined you "explaned" it better, before making my first THR post.

You statement was:

rcmodel said:
And yes, we are a kinder gentler nation now then we were in 1951.
Thanks in no small part to the corporate lawyers.
Click to expand...

Which comments on the current state of both the nation and corporate lawyers.

My post:
ziptar said:
Because the number of lawyers has gone up. ;)
Click to expand...

Is a comment on the the increase in quantity of lawyers (both corporate and otherwise) over time.

The theme of each is separate and distinct, did you even read it before making your twenty four thousand and ninety ninth post?

I joined this forum over two years ago and have read and lurked for a long time before making a post. Now that I have, and given your response, I have to ask why bother. I think this post will be my last, seems that if one's post count is beneath a particular level their input is not welcomed.

Clearly my time is better spent elsewhere. At least I can take with me the knowledge that I at least contributed in some small way to making your day and giving you the opportunity to jump all over a first post n00b with your 25,0000 post superiority. :barf:

Different sense of humor or no.
 
As things get hotter they expand. Because of global warming the grains are bigger now than they were then, so it takes fewer of them.

Or maybe RC is right!
 
At least I can take with me the knowledge that I at least contributed in some small way to making your day and giving you the opportunity to jump all over a first post n00b with your 25,0000 post superiority.
Click to expand...
Oh please, don't be so sensitive. If that's all it took then you wouldn't have lasted that long anyway. :rolleyes:
 
Trail Boss

Anyone having good luck with IMRs Trail Boss powder? It fills the case on the 45 colt almost double the other smokeless powders.( so i've read.) I just bought a S&W 25 in 45 colt ,Sorry i know it's no cowboy shooter,I was here looking for some decent loads, there's really alot on scattered info all over the board on this caliber . the good the bad and the ugly of it. http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss-feb2005.php ~~GH50~~
 
Anyone having good luck with IMRs Trail Boss powder? It fills the case on the 45 colt almost double the other smokeless powders.( so i've read.)
Click to expand...

I haven't used it, and find no need to. There are several bulky fast powders that work well (I'm using Solo 1000), and having the case filled up is no concern to me.

Don
 
Thanks guys. I will start with 8.0, as stated. I thought about TrailBoss, but it doesn't give much velocity for the same (relatively) high pressure. I'm hoping for at least 875 or 900 fps. The 5.8gr max is pretty low, and given for 727fps.. I guess I could have tried it, and used a little more, but it is a fast powder, and I'd worry about pressure spikes. Unique has been around, no surprises there.. I thought about using some 777 I have in stock, but it's FFF, and Hogdon says not to use that.. It does look like 30gr by volume would come just at the base of a 200gr bullet though.. Anyway, I have 4lbs of Unique delivered on Thursday, so I'll just have to be patient...

Gil.
 
When I load new brass-Starline- at 8gr Unique with the lee 250rnfp, my cases get really sooty outside. Indicating to me the pressures are low enough to not get a good seal. Seems to be a little better at the 8.5g. It's a classic load for a reason.
 
Works pretty well in "Ruger only" loads.
But H110/W296 & Lil' Gun will beat it on velocity.

Sure not in standard pressure .45 Colt loads for a Pietta SAA like the OP ask about though.

rc
 
Hi Don,

I've seen 19gr of 4227 as a max for an SAA.. Never tried that powder.. I am just thinking that it might fill the case better, and give a better velocity than TrailBoss...
Anyway, I'll post my results with Unique.. Just got a Chrony F1, hopefully I can set it up correctly and get some good readings..
 
Gil,

IMR4227 is a great powder. Since it is a slow extruded powder, it will give you good velocity at moderate pressure levels. It also tends to produce quite accurate loads where I use it (.357 Magnum and .30 Carbine).

Don
 
Elmer Kieth blew up so many SAA 45 Colt revolvers that he lost count.
"Working up a load" in a revolver has little meaning if the chamber walls are so thin that the cylinder splits before the cases stick.
The first sign of trouble is a destroyed gun.
In those situations, just sticking with published data is usually best.
But that is not what I do, I scale off chamber wall thickness.

Ruger Black hawk .073"
S&W 25-2 .069"
Iver Johnson Uberti Cattleman SAA clone .060"

Knowing that for nearly 10 years this has been on a website:
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/revserv.htm#rowland
Convert S&W 25/625 (.45ACP) to shoot .460 Rowland $100.00
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/460loadchart.htm

Therefore the .069" is good for 40,000 c.u.p. And Quickload calculates those loads at 50,000 psi for 12 gr Longshot 230 gr and 45,000 psi for 12.5 gr AA#5.

So I feel confident when I shoot my Quickload 22,000 psi 250 gr H110 45 Colt loads in my .060" thick ~ 1970 SAA clone.
Did you follow all that?
 
Another point besides chamber wall thickness is, what kind of steel is used and how is it heat treated.

We pretty much know on the Ruger, S&W, and 2nd. & 3rd. Gen Colts that it is going to be as good as it gets.

But not so much on all the Italian clones made through the years!

rc
 
RH50,

I have been working on some loads with TB for my New model Vaquaro recently. So far I have only been using swaged and hard cast bullets working up loads that shoot to POA. I haven't yet found a stellar load but some have been respectable between 5.2 grs and 5.5 grs. so far.
 
Elmer Kieth blew up so many SAA 45 Colt revolvers that he lost count.
Click to expand...
How many was that???

Because I only remember the one. A surplus blackpowder framed gun that he loaded with a caseful of blackpowder under a cut down .45/70 bullet, at 300gr.
 
CraigC

Quote:
Elmer Kieth blew up so many SAA 45 Colt revolvers that he lost count.
How many was that???

Because I only remember the one. A surplus blackpowder framed gun that he loaded with a caseful of blackpowder under a cut down .45/70 bullet, at 300gr.
Click to expand...

I read that somewhere, I can't find it now, so I may be full of baloney.

I Know I have blown up 4 revolvers and wrecked a couple more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
  • Locked
.45 Colt - looking for low recoil load with same POI as regular load
Replies
9
Views
1K
zeke
Z
Big D
  • Locked
Help with .45 Colt Load
Replies
13
Views
815
Slamfire
Slamfire
J
  • Locked
Target loads for 45 Colt, SAA clone
Replies
24
Views
6K
JCmax
J
T
  • Locked
45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk Load Experimental Data
Replies
4
Views
1K
thewilbur
T
Back
Top