On "blaming the victim"

[Nushif]

Unfortunately, that would seem to fall under the category of "cold comfort."

It does.

It's just very hard once you go down the path of examining a victim's choices to stop oneself from saying "if she had just stayed home, knitting with her mother instead of going to those dangerous jazz clubs, she would have been perfectly safe. So stay at home knitting if you don't want to <bleed out on the street, be raped, mugged, or any other such thing>."

I don't think anyone can truly say your choices don't matter, but simplistic mantras and one or two liners essentially shaming victims aren't useful in this discussion. The issues here are very complex and large and no amount of examining a victim's choices at any point legitimates the act of robbery, rape, murder or whatever else we can dream up.

Someone mentioned an earlier thread here about stupid places, stupid people and stupid things, where there was a huge list of basically everything young people do on the way to becoming socialized among their peer group, not to mention differentiate or reaffirm their own actions and views from their parents or grandparents, thus enabling an ongoing generational/cultural dialogue.
In this thread, essentially the guide to living safely for women was to keep an aspirin between the legs and to never leave your parent's farm and the men's guide to living safely was to never leave your parent's farm, either. City dwellers essentially were done for already, as were people with any kind of social hobby or lovers of music, the arts or anything requiring large meets, such as oh ... A gun show.
It truly is hard to maintain any kind of social ties outside of very immediate family (which isn't always safe either) in that kind of "well, let's look at the victim's choices" system of blame.
A lot of reality is indeed that no, some choices are prettty darned dumb. On the other hand it is also reality that *gasp* people like getting together in large crowds to loud music and partake in potentially mind altering behaviors and substances. For very useful things, at times.

Again, this isn't an issue someone can truly give a well thought out opinion on in one of those nifty little one or two liners that advocates self reliance we so dearly love. The problem of societal violence in its myriad forms is huge. Those one or two liners really do nothing other than to illuminate the lack of thinking having been done about it by people who can sum up their thoughts on societal violence by "avoid it."

Thin line indeed. Nobody is saying choices are free of consequences, but calling murder or rape simply a "consequence" for a bad choice IS blaming the victim.

 

[Sam1911]

The issues here are very complex and large and no amount of examining a victim's choices at any point legitimates the act of robbery, rape, murder or whatever else we can dream up.

I have to see this as a bit of an over-emphasis on the crime and/or criminal -- "legitimizing" or explaining away the violent action as "legitimate" or "not legitimate" -- as if that matters in the least to the victim.

You make a sound point that part of life is stepping outside what is comfortable and known, to do new things with new people and establish your own identity, interests, and relationships. This is moving outside the known safety nets of your childhood and taking some risks, unavoidably.

Similarly, plains herbivores know they must come to the water holes to drink. They know the lions will come to those places, too, specifically looking to prey on them. Those that live longest tend to find ways of reducing that risk -- blending in with the crowd, having watch keepers looking out to sound a warning while others drink, not displaying weakness (looking like a target), developing fast reflexes and high top speeds, working out communal defense strategies, and so forth.

So it must be with the defensive minded human who still finds him/herself compelled to step outside the safety nets they are used to. Mindfulness is the key. Having a strategy for these things may let you enjoy a taste of life's excitements without walking into the arms of the predators.

The predators are out there. They exist. Their existence is a fact or even a force of nature. That isn't legitimate or illegitimate. "Fair" or "unfair," legal or illegal, and right or wrong don't enter into it. In fact your RIGHTS don't enter into the question either. The violence is. It always was and always will be. And, when, where, and to whom it happens are, while not individually foreseeable, statistically predictable.

We can control some things and not others. To a very real degree, we CAN control whether we put ourselves where violence tends to happen. We may choose to do so anyway. That's our right. But we should do so with our eyes wide open, recognize that this is a choice that elevates our risk, and make sure we're not making OTHER bad choices which might compound the disadvantage we've knowingly put ourselves under.

So I'm going to a late night music club downtown. Deep breath, think about the scene. Perhaps I'll keep the drinks to one or two so I stay as sharp as possible.

Perhaps I'll make deliberate attempts to stay focused and not carried away with the music and excitement, so I keep aware of who's around me, who's perhaps observing from a distance, and practice the art of deliberate mindfulness and critical thinking as I make decisions throughout the evening. (This is a practiced thing, not a natural thing. Having to do with mentally taking yourself out of the moment, out of the scene, and incisively evaluating decision paths before committing to a direction.)

Maybe I'll take a cab that will drop me off and pick me up right at the club door so I and my date don't have to do the long, dark walk to the car or the subway at 2:30 am.

Maybe if I'm going to enjoy a little "mind alteration", I will choose to do that at home where my safety nets are considerably more substantial. (And, lets face it, if you're into the more serious types of mind alteration, you aren't defensive minded, you're a crime victim in waiting. Is it your "fault?" Call it what you like, but if the shoe fits...)

It is important not to "blame" the victim. But that is AFTER the fact.

It is crucially important not to BECOME one. And that is something proactive you can do BEFORE the fact.

And it is important not to rationalize away the second under the cover of avoiding the first.

 

[Nushif]

Can't say I disagree, particularly. But then your arguments never were one liners. 8)

 

[BullfrogKen]

Nushif,

Good job setting up a crowd of straw men that you can tear down.


You didn't even read John's essay, did you?


Hey, go do what you want. Doesn't matter to me, you don't have to justify it to me.

Fact is that a lot of crime happens in certain places. And if you go there and fall victim to it, yeah we'll blame the guy who did it. Perhaps that will bring some comfort to you and those who love you.

But yeah, go do what you want.

 

[Nushif]

Errr ... I don't get where your hostility is coming from. I did read his essay, and seeing how I didn't even field specific examples I don't see how I can set up strawmen either.

Why the hate, man. 8)

 

[BullfrogKen]

Nushif, do you expect me to believe that you didn't write post #26?

You made a bunch of statements about ideas nobody said just so you can tear them down.

Grow up.


Hey, if you want to go do those things, then go do those things. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Life is full of consequences
I end up saying to my boys everyday,
"that's what happens when you do that"
get in a fight, well that's what happens when you take his stuff, POINT- there is a better way - such as asking or trading

Jumping on the bed and get hurt - that's what happens when you land hard

My job isn't to keep them from consequences, but to make sure that they are safe and sound and (not lastingly) damaged

Go by yourself to a party that is designed to 'hook up' with many mind altering substances.... make the choice to pass out in a dark back room (cascading bad decisions)
WELL, that's what happens, yeah you are a victim, unfortunately
contrast that to someone who is being vigilant
I will be much more sympathetic to the person TRYING to look out for them self, than the person who willfully chooses to put themselves at risk.

And that I do believe is the crux of this
how do you explain that the 'victim's' chain of poor choices and willful behaviors are what placed them in the situation to be taken advantage of.

"Don't blame the victim" is TOO often used to silence any useful discourse, if you took their mantra, we should all walk around naked, covered in money, completely impaired, at 2:30AM, in the bad part of town singing the latest *"have sex with me, take me"* song at the top of our lungs, giving come ons to everybody, and expect to arrive home un-touched.
---> this is a disconnect from reality, and something that I hate to say is often VERY apparent as a willful omission or hypocrissy in rape prevention programs taught on colleges.

 

[rbernie]

And another comment I once made on the subject:

It seems to me that the arguments calling such behaviors irresponsible are getting dangerously close to that 'blaming the rape victim for being female/male' mentality

Fair point. I don't mean to fall into that unfair view. I'm looking at it from the perspective of the defensive-minded. It isn't your fault that something bad happened, because "fault' is a very pejorative word. But, in as sensitive and well-meaning a way as possible, we can certainly point out that perhaps there are lessons to be learned that can keep others from experiencing the same bad ends.

It isn't a person's fault that they were raped, or killed, or were a victim of theft. But refusing to learn from those experiences (and/or similar experiences of others) is clearly foolish. As the NRA's defense training title says, "Refuse to be a Victim!"

We walk a fine line between not assigning responsibility for bad events to the victims, and acknowledging that potential victims do have the ability to affect outcomes.

I remember that discussion. The blurry line, of course, lays in what constitutes 'being a victim'. At some point, displaying basic common sense blurs into being mildly paranoid which blurs into being rabidly paranoid.

The question in the OP seems to be asking - what is the appropriate level of paranoia, and at what point are we so paranoid that we adjudicate those less paranoid than ourselves to be irresponsible? For me, that depends on the likely impact(s) should the risk be realized.

In my line of work, risk management is defined by notions of probability and impact, and you cannot prosecute a risk avoidance or mitigation plan without first defining risk probability and impact. If the probability is high and the impact is high, then I will likely work to avoid the risk and anyone else who does not is (IMO) irresponsible. In cases where the impact is low regardless of probability, I will think none the worse should folk (including myself) decide to roll the dice and exert no significant effort to avoid realizing the risk. Where things get highly subjective is when the impact is high and the probability is low - that seems to be the area where most of these debates occur.

It would seem that, in the very least, debates on the topic should endeavor to identify the impact and probability as part of the context for the debate.

 

[Nushif]

It would seem that, in the very least, debates on the topic should endeavor to identify the impact and probability as part of the context for the debate.

Cisco and a lot of other companies in the security field would agree.

 

[Kleanbore]

Given that being victimized by a violent criminal actor is an extremely severe consequence by any standard, the question becomes how to manage the risk, and there are several mitigation strategies to consider.

There are places where I will not go unless I have to.

There are other places where I will not go at night.

There are places where I will go, but I always assume that there may be one or more VCAs lurking about, and I act accordingly--by taking a cab or parking close, moving quickly, and staying very alert.

And I carry less than lethal defensive items and a firearm.

Recently, a woman in our community had two armed men climb into her car, demand money, and force her at gunpoint to drive to an ATM to withdraw money. The let her go, but they murdered another woman shortly afterward.

The first victim had been eating lunch in her car in a parking lot; crime is common there. I do not think that pointing out that that is risky behavior is the same as blaming the victim.

The murder victim had been walking at night and talking on a cell phone that her attackers wanted. I do not think that pointing out that that is risky behavior is the same as blaming the victim.

A few days later, a jogger listening to music was attacked by a rapist in a wooded park area. She was slightly injured by a blow to the head and badly shaken, but when the police then advised against using earpieces while jogging, they were not blaming the victim.

We hope that discussions in ST&T will help others identify and practice prudent risk management behavior that they might not otherwise consider.